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Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)

From cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross)
Newsgroups comp.os.vms
Subject Re: And so? (VMS/XDE)
Date 2025-11-16 02:00 +0000
Organization PANIX Public Access Internet and UNIX, NYC
Message-ID <10fbb7p$h28$1@reader2.panix.com> (permalink)
References <mmenp7F4bqiU1@mid.individual.net> <10esrru$1qu6$1@dont-email.me> <10f2emh$489$1@reader2.panix.com> <10f4n8c$25lkk$1@dont-email.me>

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In article <10f4n8c$25lkk$1@dont-email.me>,
Simon Clubley  <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>On 2025-11-12, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>> In article <10esrru$1qu6$1@dont-email.me>,
>> Simon Clubley  <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>>>On 2025-11-07, Dan Cross <cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net> wrote:
>>>> As for the cloud, the number of organizations moving back
>>>> on-prem for very good reasons shouldn't be discounted.
>>>
>>>Yes, and I hope the latest batch of critical system movers do not
>>>repeat those same mistakes.
>>
>> I'm not sure what mistakes you're referring to, but let's hope
>> that system maintainers make fewer mistakes generally.  :-D
>
>I was referring to the mistake of getting rid of your local systems,
>and local systems knowledge, in favour of moving everything into the
>public clouds and outsourcing your local systems knowledge and
>development to third party vendors.
>
>This works for some people, but not for others, and there appears to have
>been quite a drive by senior management in general of inappropriate
>movement away from local control and knowledge so that it "becomes someone
>else's problem".
>
>The problem is that it isn't someone else's problem, it's still their
>problem, as more than a few people have found out the hard way, promptly
>followed by spending more money to move things back in house again.

Ah, ok.  Yes, I agree; discarding local domain knowledge is
rarely --- if ever --- a good idea.

It seems axiomatic that movement of systems should be done with
care, and only after evaluating whether such a move is a good
idea holistically.  Clearly, a lot of people moved "to the
cloud" who either did no such analysis, or did not account for a
number of variables if they did.

On the one hand, I kind of get that: there are a lot of unknowns
when doing such things, and those may not be discovered until
after the fact.  On the other hand, once you've been around for
a while, you know this is the case and should anticipate it.

Among the arguments for the cloud are that provisioning,
building, and maintaining datacenters is one of the core
competencies of the hyperscalars.  And that is true; the Googles
and Amazons and Microsofts of the world do this better than
anybody else.  So you get tremendous economies of scale with
respect to hardware and its maintenance if you leverage renting
capacity from them.  Further, you get to skip all of the capital
expenses of building out your own infrastructure.  Yay!  And
elasticity is attractive: you don't have to provision for (read:
always pay for) your peak usage; you can adjust over time and
that can save.

But your workload is _your_ workload.  The cloud provider
doesn't have any insight into your requirements there, really,
and if you're not a sufficiently large customer, they won't
really care all that much either.  At Google, we certainly made
a good-faith effort, but some things just weren't worth it from
the perspective of deciding where to spend engineering
resources.  I used to joke that we were sort of like the spacing
guild from "Dune": the Atreides and Harkonnen's could have jobs
running on the same machine and never know it.  However, none of
that is an excuse to throw away knowledge of your own workload.

But just like renting instead of owning a home, you're subject
to the landlord raising the rent on you.  And once you hit a
certain scale, the economies of scale argument begins to break
down.  Hence, re-homing back on-prem in a lot of cases.

Provided you still know how to run your own stuff, of course.

	- Dan C.

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Thread

And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-29 15:48 +0100
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 15:19 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:03 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 23:16 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 19:25 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-10-30 11:30 +0000
  Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) drb@ihatespam.msu.edu (Dennis Boone) - 2025-10-29 16:13 +0000
    Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-29 18:48 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:52 -0400
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-10-29 21:45 +0000
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-29 15:59 -0400
      Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 09:19 +0100
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-10-30 13:12 +0000
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-10-30 20:05 +0100
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:59 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:28 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-03 13:31 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:18 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-03 15:28 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-04 13:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Subcommandante XDelta <vlf@star.enet.dec.com> - 2025-11-05 07:57 +1100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-05 13:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-06 08:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) gcalliet <gerard.calliet@pia-sofer.fr> - 2025-11-20 13:05 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:34 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-07 14:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-10 14:12 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-11-10 10:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:43 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 15:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 19:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 20:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:51 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-12 01:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 21:00 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:48 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 15:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:01 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:35 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-15 00:24 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 02:41 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 06:00 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 09:22 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-15 22:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 18:12 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 09:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:41 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-21 19:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Andreas Eder <a_eder_muc@web.de> - 2025-11-15 12:15 +0100
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-15 08:27 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-11-29 19:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 05:44 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-30 06:33 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:21 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 14:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:04 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:09 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 16:11 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Chris Townley <news@cct-net.co.uk> - 2025-11-30 21:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-30 22:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-14 01:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-30 17:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 13:37 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 16:02 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:26 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:46 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 18:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:23 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:44 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:55 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 22:05 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:18 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 12:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:06 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:14 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 20:15 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 20:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 21:39 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-01 22:03 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:50 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:25 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:46 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-02 10:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 19:03 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 13:49 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 18:59 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-01 19:58 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 15:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-12-03 14:07 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-09 00:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-10 18:38 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-01 21:23 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) bill <bill.gunshannon@gmail.com> - 2025-12-01 17:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-12-02 13:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Dave Froble <davef@tsoft-inc.com> - 2025-12-08 23:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:35 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-10 15:37 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-11-11 14:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:54 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 17:04 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Simon Clubley <clubley@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> - 2025-11-13 13:42 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-16 02:00 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 10:50 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-11 20:57 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-11 18:56 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 03:56 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) cross@spitfire.i.gajendra.net (Dan Cross) - 2025-11-12 13:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 14:54 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:02 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:10 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 05:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:49 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-18 07:29 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-18 13:52 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-20 23:09 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:31 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-21 01:32 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-20 19:36 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-12 21:43 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-12 16:57 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-13 02:45 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-11-13 10:36 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-13 16:13 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-14 23:39 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-14 16:58 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-17 21:19 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-12-18 06:47 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) "Niels S. Eliasen" <nse@eliasen.co> - 2025-12-19 11:16 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:07 -0500
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-12-19 08:53 -0500
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-10-30 15:52 -0400
          Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:26 +0000
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-01 16:40 +0000
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 13:04 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:18 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) jgd@cix.co.uk (John Dallman) - 2025-11-04 22:17 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-04 22:25 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-04 19:13 -0500
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 20:14 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:02 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:34 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 21:44 -0400
            Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 17:44 -0400
              Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-01 22:13 +0000
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2025-11-01 20:14 -0400
                Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-11-02 01:30 +0000
        Re: And so? (VMS/XDE) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-30 22:29 +0000

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