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Best Linux for senior citizens?

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  Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-22 09:15 -0400
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-22 15:45 +0200
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-22 10:28 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-22 15:39 +0100
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-22 16:54 +0200
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Lew Pitcher <lew.pitcher@digitalfreehold.ca> - 2019-08-22 11:07 -0400
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-22 20:41 +0200
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2019-08-25 10:37 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Popping Mad <rainbow@colition.gov> - 2019-08-25 10:32 -0400
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-22 17:28 +0100
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-08-22 18:46 +0000
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-22 15:35 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? andrew <andrew@skamandros.invalid> - 2019-08-29 03:25 +0000
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "L.A. Rathbone" <please@replytolist.com> - 2019-08-29 03:27 +0000
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? andrew <andrew@skamandros.invalid> - 2019-08-29 04:03 +0000
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "L.A. Rathbone" <please@replytolist.com> - 2019-08-30 02:40 +0000
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? andrew <andrew@skamandros.invalid> - 2019-08-30 05:24 +0000
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 15:49 -0700
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-08-25 23:00 +0000
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-25 16:50 -0700
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-08-26 23:35 +0000
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-26 17:48 -0700
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 20:16 -0500
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-08-26 19:46 -0700
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-27 14:42 -0400
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-27 23:20 +0200
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-28 13:01 -0400
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-29 15:57 +0200
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2019-08-26 22:12 -0700
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? T <T@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-27 03:22 -0700
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-27 13:43 +0200
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "L.A. Rathbone" <please@replytolist.com> - 2019-08-27 16:38 +0000
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-08-27 17:12 +0000
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-27 16:53 -0500
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2019-08-27 15:46 -0700
                          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-28 14:21 +0200
                            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2019-08-28 07:49 -0700
                            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-29 07:45 +0100
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-08-28 02:11 +0000
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-08-28 20:19 +0000
                          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2019-08-29 02:56 +0000
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-08-27 19:11 +0000
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-27 16:53 -0500
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-27 13:08 +0200
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2019-08-29 16:48 -0500
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-27 14:34 -0400
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-27 23:16 +0200
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-28 12:59 -0400
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2019-08-29 16:50 -0500
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-27 16:53 -0500
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-28 13:50 -0400
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2019-08-28 11:45 -0700
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-29 12:27 -0400
                          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-09-21 10:47 -0400
                        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-09-21 10:27 -0400
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-08-28 18:50 +0000
                      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-29 15:59 +0200
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-08-27 17:00 -0400
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-28 14:23 +0200
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-08-27 23:45 +0000
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-28 13:59 -0400
                    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2019-08-28 23:40 +0000
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-09-21 10:18 -0400
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-22 15:39 +0100
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 08:31 -0500
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-26 16:47 +0200
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 10:55 -0500
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-26 13:18 -0400
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-26 23:45 +0200
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 17:36 -0500
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-27 14:24 -0400
                  Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-27 23:12 +0200
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-26 16:37 +0100
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2019-08-26 19:23 +0000
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? ray carter <ray@zianet.com> - 2019-08-22 14:45 +0000
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-08-22 10:19 -0500
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-22 14:37 -0400
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-08-22 16:04 -0500
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2019-08-22 18:43 +0000
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-22 17:08 -0400
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? John Forkosh <forkosh@panix.com> - 2019-08-23 05:25 +0000
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-23 15:45 -0400
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-24 14:55 -0400
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-24 21:02 +0200
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-22 14:48 -0400
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-22 17:15 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-23 00:11 +0200
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 08:36 +0100
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 09:06 +0100
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 12:33 +0100
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 14:03 +0100
                Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-23 16:28 +0200
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 08:31 -0500
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Jerry Peters <jerry@example.invalid> - 2019-08-26 20:35 +0000
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-26 13:25 -0400
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 08:31 +0100
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-08-23 03:54 +0000
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-08-23 01:05 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-23 02:04 -0400
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-08-23 01:59 -0500
          Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-08-23 03:06 -0400
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Dave <dboland9@protonmail.com> - 2019-08-23 07:27 -0400
            Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2019-08-23 16:35 +0200
              Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2019-08-23 18:05 +0100
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "L.A. Rathbone" <please@replytolist.com> - 2019-08-25 22:23 +0000
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-26 13:01 -0400
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2019-08-26 08:31 -0500
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2019-08-26 13:04 -0400
        Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2019-08-26 17:49 +0000
    Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? Bobbie Sellers <bliss@mouse-potato.com> - 2019-08-26 09:45 -0700
      Re: Best Linux for senior citizens? "David W. Hodgins" <dwhodgins@nomail.afraid.org> - 2019-08-26 13:26 -0400

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#28005

On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:45:34 +0000 (UTC), Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>
> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
>
> As I said, there are TWO Linux drivers for this thing, both with all
> appearances of working fine from any research on the web. I _did_ do
> this research beforehand, and was quite confident that even if the
> open-source driver couldn't be made to work, the proprietary one from
> SamSung was there as a fall-back.
>
> The printer is a colour laser type, and prints built-in test pages
> fine. With the open-source driver I could get it to work printing in
> B/W (which I can do with any of my B/W laser printers that _do_ work
> properly in Linux anyway, so that's not much help), but upon trying
> in colour, the printer spits out pages with (always the same) garbled
> text on them and shows an error.

What error?

> I did a lot of messing about, trying variations of the driver's
> authors instructions to compile and use old versions of ghostscript.
> I started digging into the code, though it clearly wasn't going to be
> an afternoon's work to understand SamSung's QPDL protocol to the
> point of identifying bugs. Eventually I gave up and tried the
> proprietary SamSung driver, spent an hour or two trying to get that
> to print anything at all, failed. Gave up.

Are you using CUPS? There might be an option to activate colo(u)r.

You find the CUPS web interface at http://127.0.0.1:631 .

> Also I'm in Australia, and the strange variation of printer models
> between countries adds another complication when researching some
> brands (not my SamSung though).

I didn't know that besides from currency (110 vs 220 volts) there are
differences. But I did notice you write "colour" (with u) so I suspected
you are from the UK, Canada or Australia. :-)
-- 
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

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#28010

Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> wrote:
> On Tue, 27 Aug 2019 23:45:34 +0000 (UTC), Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>
>> Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr...
>>
>> As I said, there are TWO Linux drivers for this thing, both with all
>> appearances of working fine from any research on the web. I _did_ do
>> this research beforehand, and was quite confident that even if the
>> open-source driver couldn't be made to work, the proprietary one from
>> SamSung was there as a fall-back.
>>
>> The printer is a colour laser type, and prints built-in test pages
>> fine. With the open-source driver I could get it to work printing in
>> B/W (which I can do with any of my B/W laser printers that _do_ work
>> properly in Linux anyway, so that's not much help), but upon trying
>> in colour, the printer spits out pages with (always the same) garbled
>> text on them and shows an error.
> 
> What error?

Sorry, can't remember though no doubt I left a note somewhere. If I
get back to it and run out of things to try, I might start a
dedicated topic about the problem with the full details of what I've
tried and what were the results. For now I consider that I've got
more useful and more rewarding things to pump hours of time into.

>> I did a lot of messing about, trying variations of the driver's
>> authors instructions to compile and use old versions of ghostscript.
>> I started digging into the code, though it clearly wasn't going to be
>> an afternoon's work to understand SamSung's QPDL protocol to the
>> point of identifying bugs. Eventually I gave up and tried the
>> proprietary SamSung driver, spent an hour or two trying to get that
>> to print anything at all, failed. Gave up.
> 
> Are you using CUPS? There might be an option to activate colo(u)r.

Yes, activating it causes the problems with the open-source driver. I
don't remember the SamSung driver working either way. All other
options were fully explored too.

> You find the CUPS web interface at http://127.0.0.1:631 .
> 
>> Also I'm in Australia, and the strange variation of printer models
>> between countries adds another complication when researching some
>> brands (not my SamSung though).
> 
> I didn't know that besides from currency (110 vs 220 volts) there are
> differences.

It's very strange, not only do they often change the model numbers
between countries, but sometimes there are unique designs that don't
seem to have equivalents in the US even though they're branded by
american companies. I can't remember an exact example, but I'm
thinking of the cheap inkjet printers. They might just be well hidden
in the maze of model numbers I suppose, but I remember looking into
it closely when I was trying to adapt an Epson inkjet printer for
printing onto circuit board material (with the aim of a more reliable
DIY method for making double-sided circuit boards - didn't work out).

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#28284

not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) writes:

> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> On 8/25/19 4:00 PM, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>>> T <T@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> And DONOTDONOTDONOT forget to set up their printer, or you
>>>> are going back out there!
>>> 
>>> At which point you discover that there is no Linux driver that works
>>> properly with it, and it's a new one that they proudly bought the
>>> other day. Then you're in trouble.
>> 
>> Been there done that, but a lot of years ago.
>> 
>> Now-a-days, you just fire up your web browser and go
>> get the ppd from
>> 
>>      http://openprinting.org/printers
>
> Jeeze don't I wish. Certainly it's the case a lot of the time, but
> the last printer that I tried to get working (Samsung CLP-610ND - not
> even new) has become a project put off indefinitely after a failed
> six hour marathon of determinedly trying to get either of two Linux
> drivers to work properly.
>
> And that's not the only recent story of failure. Printing with Linux
> tends to either just work, or just doesn't. The problem is the insane
> number of different printer models that are brought out all the time
> by manufacturers, usually without much thought for Linux. There are
> just too many for open-source drivers to be comprehensively tested
> and bugfixed by volunteers, so it comes down to chance as to whether
> they work or not.
>
> It sounds like you've had quite a streak of luck for some years now,
> or else I've been particularly unlucky...

With the exception of one used Lexmark laser printer I had, I've stuck
with HP laser printers over the years. (I got my first Laserjet back
when I was using an Epson MX-80 dot-matrix printer.) The Lexmark
understood Postscript, so it was easy enough to get it to work.

There have been times when not all of the features of the printer I had
were completely supported, but overall I haven't had problems with
getting any of them to work.

I don't remember when they started doing it (it was many years ago), but
HP put PPD files for their printers up for download and it was then
really easy to get their printers working. I think this was well before
hplip and then openprinting.org.

On the other hand, I've tried to help a couple of friends get Brother
laser printers working with Windows and wasn't able to. I don't know if
it was Windows or Brother that was at fault, but it didn't make me want
to use Windows or Brother printers. :-)

I've had my current printer for a while, so I don't know what things are
like now, and whether or not it would be safe to just buy another HP
when this one dies.

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#27910

On 22/08/2019 14:15, Dave wrote:
> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of 
> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on 
> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot 
> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I 
> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you 
> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some 
> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the 
> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that 
> may be of interest.
> 
Linux Mint Mate is staggeringly like XP



> I have been told that Linux Mint and Elementary are good.  I find Mint 
> to be ugly, and their web site demands cookies ( a total non-starter 
> with me).

??? Are you serious???
Get someone else to download the images then


>  Elementary wants a donation up front - not going to happen, 
> though I would gladly consider it if it is selected.
> 
> I use Ubuntu Mate, though that will change as soon as I find a Linux I 
> like better. My needs though are not the same as seniors, so what I use 
> likely won't help them.
> 

I think Gnome/Mate is what is required. If there is much difference 
between Mint and Ubuntu Mate apart from system admin Id be surprised.


> Thanks,
> Dave


-- 
The theory of Communism may be summed up in one sentence: Abolish all 
private property.

Karl Marx

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#27955

At Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:17 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:

> 
> On 22/08/2019 14:15, Dave wrote:
> > A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of 
> > what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on 
> > their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot 
> > of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I 
> > don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you 
> > have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some 
> > computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the 
> > situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that 
> > may be of interest.
> > 
> Linux Mint Mate is staggeringly like XP
> 
> 
> 
> > I have been told that Linux Mint and Elementary are good.  I find Mint 
> > to be ugly, and their web site demands cookies ( a total non-starter 
> > with me).
> 
> ??? Are you serious???
> Get someone else to download the images then
> 
> 
> >  Elementary wants a donation up front - not going to happen, 
> > though I would gladly consider it if it is selected.
> > 
> > I use Ubuntu Mate, though that will change as soon as I find a Linux I 
> > like better. My needs though are not the same as seniors, so what I use 
> > likely won't help them.
> > 
> 
> I think Gnome/Mate is what is required. If there is much difference 
> between Mint and Ubuntu Mate apart from system admin Id be surprised.

Under the hood (GUI) all Linux distros are the same.  There are basically two 
update formulas I use (I do all system admin work from a terminal, either ssh 
to/from an xterm or on the console):

RedHat flavored (CentOS 6 at present, CentOS 7 eventually):

yum update

Debian flavored (Ubuntu, Raspbian):

apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade ; apt-get autoremove

Otherwise, it is all the same.

The only chooses the OP has is what works for the older people he is working 
with -- which distro have the tastiest "eye candy".

> 
> 
> > Thanks,
> > Dave
> 
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                 

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#27958

On 26/08/2019 15.31, Robert Heller wrote:
> At Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:17 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
>>
>> On 22/08/2019 14:15, Dave wrote:
>>> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of 
>>> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on 
>>> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot 
>>> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I 
>>> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you 
>>> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some 
>>> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the 
>>> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that 
>>> may be of interest.
>>>
>> Linux Mint Mate is staggeringly like XP
>>
>>
>>
>>> I have been told that Linux Mint and Elementary are good.  I find Mint 
>>> to be ugly, and their web site demands cookies ( a total non-starter 
>>> with me).
>>
>> ??? Are you serious???
>> Get someone else to download the images then
>>
>>
>>>   Elementary wants a donation up front - not going to happen, 
>>> though I would gladly consider it if it is selected.
>>>
>>> I use Ubuntu Mate, though that will change as soon as I find a Linux I 
>>> like better. My needs though are not the same as seniors, so what I use 
>>> likely won't help them.
>>>
>>
>> I think Gnome/Mate is what is required. If there is much difference 
>> between Mint and Ubuntu Mate apart from system admin Id be surprised.
> 
> Under the hood (GUI) all Linux distros are the same.  There are basically two 
> update formulas I use (I do all system admin work from a terminal, either ssh 
> to/from an xterm or on the console):
> 
> RedHat flavored (CentOS 6 at present, CentOS 7 eventually):
> 
> yum update
> 
> Debian flavored (Ubuntu, Raspbian):
> 
> apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade ; apt-get autoremove
> 

You forget zypper/yast

> Otherwise, it is all the same.
> 
> The only chooses the OP has is what works for the older people he is working 
> with -- which distro have the tastiest "eye candy".

IMO the crucial point is choosing the distribution that you know best or
the one you have local support for. Not the best distribution, but the
one that you can support better or get somebody else to support.

Most initiatives to change institutions to use Linux instead of Windows
that fail are because lack of support or training of the users.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#27960

At Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:47:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> 
> On 26/08/2019 15.31, Robert Heller wrote:
> > At Thu, 22 Aug 2019 15:39:17 +0100 The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > 
> >>
> >> On 22/08/2019 14:15, Dave wrote:
> >>> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of 
> >>> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on 
> >>> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot 
> >>> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I 
> >>> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you 
> >>> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some 
> >>> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the 
> >>> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that 
> >>> may be of interest.
> >>>
> >> Linux Mint Mate is staggeringly like XP
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>> I have been told that Linux Mint and Elementary are good.  I find Mint 
> >>> to be ugly, and their web site demands cookies ( a total non-starter 
> >>> with me).
> >>
> >> ??? Are you serious???
> >> Get someone else to download the images then
> >>
> >>
> >>>   Elementary wants a donation up front - not going to happen, 
> >>> though I would gladly consider it if it is selected.
> >>>
> >>> I use Ubuntu Mate, though that will change as soon as I find a Linux I 
> >>> like better. My needs though are not the same as seniors, so what I use 
> >>> likely won't help them.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I think Gnome/Mate is what is required. If there is much difference 
> >> between Mint and Ubuntu Mate apart from system admin Id be surprised.
> > 
> > Under the hood (GUI) all Linux distros are the same.  There are basically two 
> > update formulas I use (I do all system admin work from a terminal, either ssh 
> > to/from an xterm or on the console):
> > 
> > RedHat flavored (CentOS 6 at present, CentOS 7 eventually):
> > 
> > yum update
> > 
> > Debian flavored (Ubuntu, Raspbian):
> > 
> > apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade ; apt-get autoremove
> > 
> 
> You forget zypper/yast
> 
> > Otherwise, it is all the same.
> > 
> > The only chooses the OP has is what works for the older people he is working 
> > with -- which distro have the tastiest "eye candy".
> 
> IMO the crucial point is choosing the distribution that you know best or
> the one you have local support for. Not the best distribution, but the
> one that you can support better or get somebody else to support.
> 
> Most initiatives to change institutions to use Linux instead of Windows
> that fail are because lack of support or training of the users.

A *good* Linux admin can provide support for any flavor of Linux (stress on 
"good").  There are lots of not so good Linux admins out there.  A Linux admin 
that *depends* on disto-specific pointy-clicky admin tools is a very poor 
Linux admin indeed.


> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                                                          

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#27964

On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:55:27 -0500, Robert Heller wrote:
>
> At Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:47:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>
>> IMO the crucial point is choosing the distribution that you know best or
>> the one you have local support for. Not the best distribution, but the
>> one that you can support better or get somebody else to support.
>> 
>> Most initiatives to change institutions to use Linux instead of Windows
>> that fail are because lack of support or training of the users.

Indeed.

> A *good* Linux admin can provide support for any flavor of Linux (stress on 
> "good").  There are lots of not so good Linux admins out there.  A Linux admin 
> that *depends* on disto-specific pointy-clicky admin tools is a very poor 
> Linux admin indeed.

I think Carlos meant that there is no support for Linux because the
"teacher" has never used Linux.

Anyway, after a decade I have the pleasure to have inherited a server
on a different continent with a flavor I never used. After SUSE, Madriva
and here at home Debian it's Cent OS (Red Hat). I like it so far. Yum yum!
-- 
Andreas

My random thoughts and comments
https://news-commentaries.blogspot.com/

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#27970

On 26/08/2019 19.18, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:55:27 -0500, Robert Heller wrote:
>>
>> At Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:47:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> IMO the crucial point is choosing the distribution that you know best or
>>> the one you have local support for. Not the best distribution, but the
>>> one that you can support better or get somebody else to support.
>>>
>>> Most initiatives to change institutions to use Linux instead of Windows
>>> that fail are because lack of support or training of the users.
> 
> Indeed.
> 
>> A *good* Linux admin can provide support for any flavor of Linux (stress on 
>> "good").  There are lots of not so good Linux admins out there.  A Linux admin 
>> that *depends* on disto-specific pointy-clicky admin tools is a very poor 
>> Linux admin indeed.
> 
> I think Carlos meant that there is no support for Linux because the
> "teacher" has never used Linux.

Yes.

Linux is Linux, all distributions are similar at heart. However, I
refuse the idea that a good admin must know intimately every
distribution out there. There are many subtle differences between each
distribution, how they handle things, how they solve things.

So. Sure it is better to get an admin that is fluent on every
distribution. Can you find him? The OP is not one. I'm not, and I have
no reason to be unless they pay me. I use the machines, I do not
(currently) live from them, so I have no reason to spend time in
learning all the details from every (main) distro, and keep current on
them. Unless they pay me to, that is ;-)

> 
> Anyway, after a decade I have the pleasure to have inherited a server
> on a different continent with a flavor I never used. After SUSE, Madriva
> and here at home Debian it's Cent OS (Red Hat). I like it so far. Yum yum!

:-)

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#27971

At Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:45:04 +0200 "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:

> 
> On 26/08/2019 19.18, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> > On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 10:55:27 -0500, Robert Heller wrote:
> >>
> >> At Mon, 26 Aug 2019 16:47:34 +0200 "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> IMO the crucial point is choosing the distribution that you know best or
> >>> the one you have local support for. Not the best distribution, but the
> >>> one that you can support better or get somebody else to support.
> >>>
> >>> Most initiatives to change institutions to use Linux instead of Windows
> >>> that fail are because lack of support or training of the users.
> > 
> > Indeed.
> > 
> >> A *good* Linux admin can provide support for any flavor of Linux (stress on 
> >> "good").  There are lots of not so good Linux admins out there.  A Linux admin 
> >> that *depends* on disto-specific pointy-clicky admin tools is a very poor 
> >> Linux admin indeed.
> > 
> > I think Carlos meant that there is no support for Linux because the
> > "teacher" has never used Linux.
> 
> Yes.
> 
> Linux is Linux, all distributions are similar at heart. However, I
> refuse the idea that a good admin must know intimately every
> distribution out there. There are many subtle differences between each
> distribution, how they handle things, how they solve things.

I never said that a good admin must know intimately every distribution out
there. Just the core *common* features and not be "tied" to distribution
specific features. *And* be smart enough to pick up a "new" distro's features
as needed. There are two *major* flavors of distributions: those that are Red
Hat flavored and those that are Debian flavors (yes, there are some others
that are something completely different). So there are the two major package
managers: rpm with yum, dpkg with apt or apt-get. Beyond that most of the rest
is petty much distribution netural -- eg sudo is the same, useradd is the
same, crontab is the same, ls, cp, mv, find, etc are all the same, netstat is
the same, bash is the same, etc. (Well, there are several "init" variations,
but systemd seems to be the current flavor-de-jur for most now.) I used Red
Hat flavored since forever, but was able to pick up managing Ubuntu and
Raspbian with little trouble -- just learning a couple of new commands (dpkg,
apt-get, etc.). Systemd is a bit different (from SysV or Upstart), but easy
enough to figure out. I pretty much have no partitular interest in learning
the *Desktop* environment, since I mostly won't be using it, since as far as I
am concerned, they are all pretty awful and unusable (by me). I will configure
any machine *I* will be using to have my own custom/unique GUI environment,
which is completely different from what anybody else uses. Otherwise I pretty
much leave the GUI alone and either ssh into it from my laptop, do a
Ctl-Alt-F2 to get a console, or just open a terminal window on the desktop.

> 
> So. Sure it is better to get an admin that is fluent on every
> distribution. Can you find him? The OP is not one. I'm not, and I have
> no reason to be unless they pay me. I use the machines, I do not
> (currently) live from them, so I have no reason to spend time in
> learning all the details from every (main) distro, and keep current on
> them. Unless they pay me to, that is ;-)



> 
> > 
> > Anyway, after a decade I have the pleasure to have inherited a server
> > on a different continent with a flavor I never used. After SUSE, Madriva
> > and here at home Debian it's Cent OS (Red Hat). I like it so far. Yum yum!
> 
> :-)
> 

-- 
Robert Heller             -- 978-544-6933
Deepwoods Software        -- Custom Software Services
http://www.deepsoft.com/  -- Linux Administration Services
heller@deepsoft.com       -- Webhosting Services
                                                                 

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#27984

On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:45:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>
> On 26/08/2019 19.18, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>
> Linux is Linux, all distributions are similar at heart. However, I
> refuse the idea that a good admin must know intimately every
> distribution out there. There are many subtle differences between each
> distribution, how they handle things, how they solve things.

s/good/professional/

Some are "good" with the own distribution running. But in corporations
where possibly a hand full of different distributions are in use the
admin(s) should know them all.
-- 
Andreas

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#27988

On 27/08/2019 20.24, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
> On Mon, 26 Aug 2019 23:45:04 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>> On 26/08/2019 19.18, Andreas Kohlbach wrote:
>>
>> Linux is Linux, all distributions are similar at heart. However, I
>> refuse the idea that a good admin must know intimately every
>> distribution out there. There are many subtle differences between each
>> distribution, how they handle things, how they solve things.
> 
> s/good/professional/
> 
> Some are "good" with the own distribution running. But in corporations
> where possibly a hand full of different distributions are in use the
> admin(s) should know them all.

Certainly. But they are paid - remember I said that? ;-)


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#27959

On 26/08/2019 14:31, Robert Heller wrote:
> Under the hood (GUI) all Linux distros are the same. 

But the dashvoards are completely different

> There are basically two
> update formulas I use (I do all system admin work from a terminal, either ssh
> to/from an xterm or on the console):
> 
> RedHat flavored (CentOS 6 at present, CentOS 7 eventually):
> 
> yum update
> 
> Debian flavored (Ubuntu, Raspbian):
> 
> apt-get update ; apt-get dist-upgrade ; apt-get autoremove
> 
> Otherwise, it is all the same.

No, at GUI level its completely different,
I have a task bar icon aqnd when it is an exclamaqtion mark I click on 
it, enter my passwords and it upgrades waht it has too.

Under the hood it may be calling apt, but my senior citzens doesnt even 
know where the hood release is. And having had to reset his mobile phone 
more times than I care to admit after he has randomly changed passwords 
and aswitched stuff on and off, I aint telling him.

> 
> The only chooses the OP has is what works for the older people he is working
> with -- which distro have the tastiest "eye candy".

I have ended up with MATE because its a well presented UI that you can 
configure to be dead simple

And dead simple is what elderly people like


-- 
Microsoft : the best reason to go to Linux that ever existed.

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#27968

In comp.os.linux.misc, Robert Heller  <heller@deepsoft.com> wrote:
> Under the hood (GUI) all Linux distros are the same.  There are
> basically two update formulas I use (I do all system admin work from a
> terminal, either ssh to/from an xterm or on the console):

Your world sounds kinda limited then. Alpine will be a lot different
than Slackware which will be different than NixOS. And while all are
fundamentally Unix, under the hood there are some significant
differences.

Alpine does stuff like read-only installs really well and defaults to
small and minimal. You get busybox providing a bunch of standard utils
instead of them being installed by default.

Slackware is old-fashioned through deliberate choices not to chase new
and shiny. This is the OS to pick if you think package managers are a
pain and compiling for source is easier.

NixOS takes independent code to great extremes. This is a good distro to
pick if you need things that rely on multiple different versions of
glibc, because it can patch the ELF files to give you different dynamic
linkers for different programs, and have different library search paths
for each linker.

And there are more things out there than those.

> Otherwise, it is all the same.
> 
> The only chooses the OP has is what works for the older people he is
> working with -- which distro have the tastiest "eye candy".

For old people, which distro has best accessibility features put front
and center might be best. I have no relevant experience here

Elijah
------
does not associate 'tastiest "eye candy"' with 'accessibility'

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#27912

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:15:30 -0400, Dave wrote:

> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of
> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on
> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot
> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I
> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you
> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some
> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the
> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that
> may be of interest.
> 
> I have been told that Linux Mint and Elementary are good.  I find Mint
> to be ugly, and their web site demands cookies ( a total non-starter
> with me).  Elementary wants a donation up front - not going to happen,
> though I would gladly consider it if it is selected.
> 
> I use Ubuntu Mate, though that will change as soon as I find a Linux I
> like better. My needs though are not the same as seniors, so what I use
> likely won't help them.
> 
> Thanks,
> Dave

We are 73 and 74. Using Debian (currently Buster) with LXDE. No issues. 
For one thing it is rock solid and only upgrades every couple of years.

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#27915

On 22 Aug 2019 14:45:29 GMT, ray carter wrote:
> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:15:30 -0400, Dave wrote:
>
>> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of
>> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on
>> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot
>> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I
>> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you
>> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some
>> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the
>> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that
>> may be of interest.


As a light weight OS desktop environment easy to configure I recommend
Xfcxe. I noticed MX Linux Xfce was better the a ?buntu Xfce.

I tested latest Official Xfce release 4.14 this morning and it should
be easy enough for a Win 7 user to configure it.

I use the Mageia Linux distribution. Go ahead and download a live iso,
burn/bootrun it and see how easy to use yourself.

Be aware live iso runs sluggishly since it is running from a compressed
image and does not modify your disk/system unless you decide to install it.

 https://mirrors.kernel.org/mageia/iso/7/Mageia-7-Live-Xfce-x86_64/

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#27917

On 8/22/19 11:19 AM, Bit Twister wrote:
> Mageia Linux

Thanks!  Am downloading now.

Dave,

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#27925

On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 14:37:57 -0400, Dave wrote:
> On 8/22/19 11:19 AM, Bit Twister wrote:
>> Mageia Linux
>
> Thanks!  Am downloading now.
>
> Dave,

mcc is the Mageia control center and a gui interface for general
system administration.
  http://doc.mageia.org/mcc/7/en/content/index.html

You can check https://mirrors.mageia.org/status for package mirror of
choice. Mirror lookup found at https://mirrors.mageia.org/

User forum found at https://forums.mageia.org/en/
Bug reports found at https://bugs.mageia.org/

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#27920

On 2019-08-22, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:

> On 22 Aug 2019 14:45:29 GMT, ray carter wrote:
>
>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:15:30 -0400, Dave wrote:
>>
>>> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of
>>> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on
>>> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot
>>> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I
>>> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you
>>> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some
>>> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the
>>> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that
>>> may be of interest.
>
> As a light weight OS desktop environment easy to configure I recommend
> Xfcxe. I noticed MX Linux Xfce was better the a ?buntu Xfce.
>
> I tested latest Official Xfce release 4.14 this morning and it should
> be easy enough for a Win 7 user to configure it.

Here's another vote for Xfce.  It's lightweight, does what you want,
and stays out of the way.

> I use the Mageia Linux distribution. Go ahead and download a live iso,
> burn/bootrun it and see how easy to use yourself.

When I switched from Slackware in search of better package management,
I tried several distros.  Mint was OK, but not that thrilling.  I found
Mageia to be too heavyweight.  It uses KDE, which for me carries too
much baggage, including spitting out a lot of messages in my console
windows from processes which (IMHO) have no business running at all.

I've settled on Debian (because it's mainstream and works well),
along with Xfce.

-- 
/~\  cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid (Charlie Gibbs)
\ /  I'm really at ac.dekanfrus if you read it the right way.
 X   Top-posted messages will probably be ignored.  See RFC1855.
/ \  "Alexa, define 'bugging'."

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#27926

On 8/22/19 2:43 PM, Charlie Gibbs wrote:
> On 2019-08-22, Bit Twister <BitTwister@mouse-potato.com> wrote:
> 
>> On 22 Aug 2019 14:45:29 GMT, ray carter wrote:
>>
>>> On Thu, 22 Aug 2019 09:15:30 -0400, Dave wrote:
>>>
>>>> A friend of mine works with seniors and they are facing getting rid of
>>>> what ever Windows version they had (7 maybe - don't know for sure) on
>>>> their many computers. Windows 10 seems to be an issue for them for a lot
>>>> of reasons.  So he asked me about Linux.  The problem for me is that I
>>>> don't have any experience with this.  So, I'm hoping that some of you
>>>> have had experience with Linux for seniors that may have had some
>>>> computer experience - Windows XP perhaps - and can describe the
>>>> situation they faced, what distribution worked best, and anything that
>>>> may be of interest.
>>
>> As a light weight OS desktop environment easy to configure I recommend
>> Xfcxe. I noticed MX Linux Xfce was better the a ?buntu Xfce.
>>
>> I tested latest Official Xfce release 4.14 this morning and it should
>> be easy enough for a Win 7 user to configure it.
> 
> Here's another vote for Xfce.  It's lightweight, does what you want,
> and stays out of the way.
> 
>> I use the Mageia Linux distribution. Go ahead and download a live iso,
>> burn/bootrun it and see how easy to use yourself.
> 
> When I switched from Slackware in search of better package management,
> I tried several distros.  Mint was OK, but not that thrilling.  I found
> Mageia to be too heavyweight.  It uses KDE, which for me carries too
> much baggage, including spitting out a lot of messages in my console
> windows from processes which (IMHO) have no business running at all.
> 
> I've settled on Debian (because it's mainstream and works well),
> along with Xfce.
> 
Boy, do I hear you!  I started with Slackware, and liked it.  Tried 
Linux Mandrake (recall that one?), then Debian, then Ubuntu.  Slack was 
more work than I wanted, and Debian was great, but the repositories 
didn't keep up with new releases as quickly as I had hoped (8 yrs. ago). 
  Still Debian is great stuff, and Xfce is very good.

Dave,

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