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Linux upgrade.

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  Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-23 22:21 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-23 22:30 +0100
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 12:57 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-23 22:04 +0000
      Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-23 22:52 +0000
        Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-24 00:23 +0000
          Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 00:27 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-24 02:08 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 02:24 +0000
                Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-24 03:04 +0000
                  Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-24 05:50 +0000
                  Re: Linux upgrade. Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2024-12-24 08:19 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. John McCue <jmccue@qball.jmcunx.com> - 2024-12-24 20:05 +0000
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 14:03 +0100
    Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-24 01:31 -0500
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-24 15:26 +0100
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 01:14 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 12:42 +0100
      Re: Linux upgrade. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-24 19:21 +0000
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 02:15 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. vallor <vallor@cultnix.org> - 2024-12-25 21:30 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 20:54 -0500
    Re: Linux upgrade. not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2024-12-26 07:02 +1000
      Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-25 23:08 +0100
        Re: Linux upgrade. "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net> - 2024-12-25 21:47 -0500
          Re: Linux upgrade. Lars Poulsen <lars@cleo.beagle-ears.com> - 2024-12-26 03:40 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2024-12-26 04:19 +0000
              Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:57 +0100
              Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-26 14:27 +0100
                Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 16:42 +0100
            Re: Linux upgrade. Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2024-12-26 08:14 +0000
            Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:52 +0100
            Re: Linux upgrade. "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2024-12-26 14:04 +0100
          Re: Linux upgrade. D <nospam@example.net> - 2024-12-26 12:37 +0100

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#63057

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 02:15:44 -0500, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
wrote in <BcucnUKMhO-9LPb6nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com>:

> On 12/24/24 2:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 01:31:38 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>> 
>>>     Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>>>     just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time to jump up two or
>>>     three whole distro versions. It's only 'home use' now, so I'm not so
>>>     worried about Vlad and Xi.
>> 
>> The Fedora box pulls down kernels frequently and is usually only a minor
>> version or two behind the latest. The Ubuntu box is still 6.8.0. They both
>> work fine for anything I do.
> 
>    Zactly ... ordinary upgrades almost always get it done.
> 
>    Again though, a busy outwards-facing server, some of
>    those point upgrades MAY be valuable.

I remembered this one:

"EXT4 Has A Very Nice Performance Optimization For Linux 6.11"

https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.11-EXT4

-- 
-v System76 Thelio Mega v1.1 x86_64 NVIDIA RTX 3090 Ti
   OS: Linux 6.13.0-rc4 Release: Mint 21.3 Mem: 258G
   "He who Laughs, Lasts."

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#63069

On 12/25/24 4:30 PM, vallor wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Dec 2024 02:15:44 -0500, "186282@ud0s4.net" <186283@ud0s4.net>
> wrote in <BcucnUKMhO-9LPb6nZ2dnZfqn_ednZ2d@earthlink.com>:
> 
>> On 12/24/24 2:21 PM, rbowman wrote:
>>> On Tue, 24 Dec 2024 01:31:38 -0500, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:
>>>
>>>>      Me, I just generally avoid serious kernel upgrades ...
>>>>      just the usual auto-upgrades until I feel it's time to jump up two or
>>>>      three whole distro versions. It's only 'home use' now, so I'm not so
>>>>      worried about Vlad and Xi.
>>>
>>> The Fedora box pulls down kernels frequently and is usually only a minor
>>> version or two behind the latest. The Ubuntu box is still 6.8.0. They both
>>> work fine for anything I do.
>>
>>     Zactly ... ordinary upgrades almost always get it done.
>>
>>     Again though, a busy outwards-facing server, some of
>>     those point upgrades MAY be valuable.
> 
> I remembered this one:
> 
> "EXT4 Has A Very Nice Performance Optimization For Linux 6.11"
> 
> https://www.phoronix.com/news/Linux-6.11-EXT4


   Maybe ... but it's STILL "mass storage" and will
   be VASTLY slower than the CPU and such.

   Oh well, better than tape reels and such ...

   I kinda remember doing code 'overlays' with stuff
   pulled off those spinny tapes ... like WOW slow !
   The good 'ole "batch" days  :-)

   Turbo Pascal did 'overlays' too - and had to use
   'em early on with limited PCs. However 'cheap'
   HDDs had been invented so it wasn't THAT bad.

   5 1/4 full-height Rodime 10 MEGAbyte HDD ...
   that's the first 'cheap' one I used. Something
   like $2600 1980s dollars. My poor boss spent
   the whole weekend with the thing trying to
   get it to boot the system. I looked at it on
   Monday ... turned out he was just too IMPATIENT
   and would restart over and over and over before
   the boot routine could fully kick in  :-)

   Not sure if those were "MFM" or just "FM".

   STILL kinda write software with the 'batch'
   approach in mind. First bit does its stuff
   and makes temp file, then the second works
   on that and makes another temp file, on
   and on until it's done. Advantage - you can
   LOOK at those temp files for debugging clues.
   Just include a "-P" 'preserve tempfiles' option.

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#63056

D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the 
> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a long 
> time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.

Where practical I prefer to clone the drive and upgrade the clone,
then work on the issues while using the old OS on the original
drive and finally clone the upgrade drive over when everything's
working right (after doing a backup of the old one just in case I
was wrong). So there's no deadline as such, just the annoyance of
needing to note when new software is installed during use so the
same can be done on the upgrade drive.

> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot 
> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.

I often have trouble with things getting unintentionally
uninstalled.

-- 
__          __
#_ < |\| |< _#

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#63062

On Wed, 26 Dec 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:

> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the
>> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a long
>> time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
>
> Where practical I prefer to clone the drive and upgrade the clone,
> then work on the issues while using the old OS on the original

Way to advanced for my humble infrastructure. ;) But online and in the 
hosting environment, snapshots are very convenient when doing any big 
changes. Actually, I do have btrfs on my opensuse, so when doing any 
upgrades, it does take a snapshot, so I do have the option of rolling back 
to the last good snapshot. Come to think of it, I've done it once with 
great success! =)

> drive and finally clone the upgrade drive over when everything's
> working right (after doing a backup of the old one just in case I
> was wrong). So there's no deadline as such, just the annoyance of
> needing to note when new software is installed during use so the
> same can be done on the upgrade drive.
> 
>> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot
>> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
>
> I often have trouble with things getting unintentionally
> uninstalled.

Strangely enough, everything survived and was upgraded after the OS 
upgrade. Opensuse is a true ninja! I do not understand why not more people 
use it in production. I suspect that it is one distro that will disappear 
within the next 10 years or so, as SUSE gets more and more mismanaged.

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#63070

On 12/25/24 5:08 PM, D wrote:
> 
> 
> On Wed, 26 Dec 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
> 
>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the
>>> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a 
>>> long
>>> time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
>>
>> Where practical I prefer to clone the drive and upgrade the clone,
>> then work on the issues while using the old OS on the original
> 
> Way to advanced for my humble infrastructure. ;) But online and in the 
> hosting environment, snapshots are very convenient when doing any big 
> changes. Actually, I do have btrfs on my opensuse, so when doing any 
> upgrades, it does take a snapshot, so I do have the option of rolling 
> back to the last good snapshot. Come to think of it, I've done it once 
> with great success! =)
> 
>> drive and finally clone the upgrade drive over when everything's
>> working right (after doing a backup of the old one just in case I
>> was wrong). So there's no deadline as such, just the annoyance of
>> needing to note when new software is installed during use so the
>> same can be done on the upgrade drive.
>>
>>> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot
>>> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
>>
>> I often have trouble with things getting unintentionally
>> uninstalled.
> 
> Strangely enough, everything survived and was upgraded after the OS 
> upgrade. Opensuse is a true ninja! I do not understand why not more 
> people use it in production. I suspect that it is one distro that will 
> disappear within the next 10 years or so, as SUSE gets more and more 
> mismanaged.

   The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL
   vortex now, just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically
   an unpaid beta tester for IBM. Eventually they won't need
   that so much - and that entire distro family will just
   go away.

   Hmm ... time for a "MOREOpenSUSE" fork ... it really is a
   very good, useful, helpful distro. Used it for a LONG
   time for both workstations and servers.

   Debian WAS good - but now it's gone way too 'Canonical'
   for no good reasons whatsoever except to cause problems.
   A few forks like Devuan may still be OK for now.

   Arch derivs and a few of the BSDs may be your future.
   Just downloaded the latest 'Dragonfly' yesterday. I'll
   make a VM out of it for experimental purposes. The
   biggest BSD prob these days is that the driver database
   tends to run years behind ... making them better for
   servers with boring standard hardware.

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#63076

On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>    The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL
>    vortex now, just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically
>    an unpaid beta tester for IBM. Eventually they won't need
>    that so much - and that entire distro family will just
>    go away.

Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
openSUSE.

Or do you just mean that SUSE uses RPM packaging like RedHat
distributions do?

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#63077

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>    The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL vortex now,
>>    just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically an unpaid beta tester
>>    for IBM. Eventually they won't need that so much - and that entire
>>    distro family will just go away.
> 
> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
> openSUSE.

It's hard to keep track of the shell game from Novell to Attachmate to 
MicroFocus but I believe EQT AB has it now, at least the Enterprise. 

https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/german-software-firm-suse-be-taken-
private-by-eqt-16-euros-per-share-2023-08-17/

I don't know if OpenSUSE is upstream of SLE like Rawhide/Fedora are 
upstream of RHEL. No particular reason but I missed the leap from 13.2 to 
Leap and eventually went to Fedora on that box.

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#63091

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, rbowman wrote:

> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>
>> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>    The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL vortex now,
>>>    just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically an unpaid beta tester
>>>    for IBM. Eventually they won't need that so much - and that entire
>>>    distro family will just go away.
>>
>> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
>> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
>> openSUSE.
>
> It's hard to keep track of the shell game from Novell to Attachmate to
> MicroFocus but I believe EQT AB has it now, at least the Enterprise.
>
> https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/german-software-firm-suse-be-taken-
> private-by-eqt-16-euros-per-share-2023-08-17/

Yes, EQT seems to be the current owner. Strange! I could have bet I heard 
rumours about them selling it to a UK private equity company, but maybe 
the deal didn't happen in the end.

When I was working there, they had a great retirement plan. 20% of your on 
target earnings (regardless of it you met your target or not) they put 
away in an retirement account for you. The only company I heard that had a 
better plan was Oracle where the figure was 30%.

> I don't know if OpenSUSE is upstream of SLE like Rawhide/Fedora are
> upstream of RHEL. No particular reason but I missed the leap from 13.2 to
> Leap and eventually went to Fedora on that box.

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#63094

On 2024-12-26 05:19, rbowman wrote:
> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
> 
>> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>     The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL vortex now,
>>>     just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically an unpaid beta tester
>>>     for IBM. Eventually they won't need that so much - and that entire
>>>     distro family will just go away.
>>
>> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
>> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
>> openSUSE.
> 
> It's hard to keep track of the shell game from Novell to Attachmate to
> MicroFocus but I believe EQT AB has it now, at least the Enterprise.
> 
> https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/german-software-firm-suse-be-taken-
> private-by-eqt-16-euros-per-share-2023-08-17/
> 
> I don't know if OpenSUSE is upstream of SLE like Rawhide/Fedora are
> upstream of RHEL. No particular reason but I missed the leap from 13.2 to
> Leap and eventually went to Fedora on that box.

openSUSE (not OpenSUSE) Tumbleweed is loosely upstream of SLE, and SLE 
is the basis (package compatible) of Leap.

The next SLE has been delayed for about two years, I think. The new 
design is taking longer than they thought.

https://news.opensuse.org/2024/10/07/leap-16-0-prealpha/


There were talks of using containers, but I'm unsure of the name.

"Just for clarification SLFO, SUSE Linux Framework One, is the source 
pool for SLES 16 and SL Micro 6.X. SLFO was previously known as 
Adaptable Linux Platform (ALP)."


https://www.suse.com/c/revolutionizing-linux-distributions-with-an-adaptable-linux-platform/

https://www.suse.com/c/suse-salp-raises-the-bar-on-confidential-computing/

https://www.muylinux.com/2024/01/15/opensuse-leap-16-alp/

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#63097

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Carlos E.R. wrote:

> On 2024-12-26 05:19, rbowman wrote:
>> On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:
>> 
>>> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>>>     The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL vortex now,
>>>>     just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically an unpaid beta tester
>>>>     for IBM. Eventually they won't need that so much - and that entire
>>>>     distro family will just go away.
>>> 
>>> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
>>> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
>>> openSUSE.
>> 
>> It's hard to keep track of the shell game from Novell to Attachmate to
>> MicroFocus but I believe EQT AB has it now, at least the Enterprise.
>> 
>> https://www.reuters.com/markets/deals/german-software-firm-suse-be-taken-
>> private-by-eqt-16-euros-per-share-2023-08-17/
>> 
>> I don't know if OpenSUSE is upstream of SLE like Rawhide/Fedora are
>> upstream of RHEL. No particular reason but I missed the leap from 13.2 to
>> Leap and eventually went to Fedora on that box.
>
> openSUSE (not OpenSUSE) Tumbleweed is loosely upstream of SLE, and SLE is the 
> basis (package compatible) of Leap.
>
> The next SLE has been delayed for about two years, I think. The new design is 
> taking longer than they thought.
>
> https://news.opensuse.org/2024/10/07/leap-16-0-prealpha/
>
>
> There were talks of using containers, but I'm unsure of the name.
>
> "Just for clarification SLFO, SUSE Linux Framework One, is the source pool 
> for SLES 16 and SL Micro 6.X. SLFO was previously known as Adaptable Linux 
> Platform (ALP)."
>
>
> https://www.suse.com/c/revolutionizing-linux-distributions-with-an-adaptable-linux-platform/
>
> https://www.suse.com/c/suse-salp-raises-the-bar-on-confidential-computing/
>
> https://www.muylinux.com/2024/01/15/opensuse-leap-16-alp/

I was reading up on opensuse 16 yesterday and it seems that 16 will let 
you do container based read only root, and regular read/write root. Since 
I like to make modifications and not have to restart, I'll happily take 
the classic version. Seems like opensuse leap will live on for all of 
version 16 at least! =)

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#63081

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024 03:40:38 -0000 (UTC), Lars Poulsen wrote:

> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?

The one you are responding to is known for spouting dubious stuff like 
that.

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#63090

On Thu, 26 Dec 2024, Lars Poulsen wrote:

> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>    The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL
>>    vortex now, just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically
>>    an unpaid beta tester for IBM. Eventually they won't need
>>    that so much - and that entire distro family will just
>>    go away.
>
> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?
> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
> openSUSE.
>
> Or do you just mean that SUSE uses RPM packaging like RedHat
> distributions do?
>

Yes, I am also a bit confused. Based on what I hear from inside the 
company, SUSE does a good job of making themselves obsolete though, so no 
help from IBM needed. ;)

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#63093

On 2024-12-26 04:40, Lars Poulsen wrote:
> On 2024-12-26, 186282@ud0s4.net <186283@ud0s4.net> wrote:
>>     The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL
>>     vortex now, just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically
>>     an unpaid beta tester for IBM. Eventually they won't need
>>     that so much - and that entire distro family will just
>>     go away.
> 
> Are you saying that RedHat has bought SUSE?

Certainly not.

> I see no reference to this in the Wikipedia articles about SuSE and
> openSUSE.
> 
> Or do you just mean that SUSE uses RPM packaging like RedHat
> distributions do?


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#63085

On Wed, 25 Dec 2024, 186282@ud0s4.net wrote:

> On 12/25/24 5:08 PM, D wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, 26 Dec 2024, Computer Nerd Kev wrote:
>> 
>>> D <nospam@example.net> wrote:
>>>> As part of my christmas tradition, I always upgrade my linux when the
>>>> holiday starts. The reason is that if something goes wrong, I have a long
>>>> time to fix it, without anything work related getting in the way.
>>> 
>>> Where practical I prefer to clone the drive and upgrade the clone,
>>> then work on the issues while using the old OS on the original
>> 
>> Way to advanced for my humble infrastructure. ;) But online and in the 
>> hosting environment, snapshots are very convenient when doing any big 
>> changes. Actually, I do have btrfs on my opensuse, so when doing any 
>> upgrades, it does take a snapshot, so I do have the option of rolling back 
>> to the last good snapshot. Come to think of it, I've done it once with 
>> great success! =)
>> 
>>> drive and finally clone the upgrade drive over when everything's
>>> working right (after doing a backup of the old one just in case I
>>> was wrong). So there's no deadline as such, just the annoyance of
>>> needing to note when new software is installed during use so the
>>> same can be done on the upgrade drive.
>>> 
>>>> Every year, I am equally surprised when things just work. I move my dot
>>>> files, and all application are there, with the settings I'm used to.
>>> 
>>> I often have trouble with things getting unintentionally
>>> uninstalled.
>> 
>> Strangely enough, everything survived and was upgraded after the OS 
>> upgrade. Opensuse is a true ninja! I do not understand why not more people 
>> use it in production. I suspect that it is one distro that will disappear 
>> within the next 10 years or so, as SUSE gets more and more mismanaged.
>
>  The death of OpenSUSE is that it's part of the IBM/RHEL
>  vortex now, just like CentOS. Using it, you're basically
>  an unpaid beta tester for IBM. Eventually they won't need
>  that so much - and that entire distro family will just
>  go away.

What is this IBM/RHEL vortex of SUSE? I've missed that completely. Is 
anyone buying SUSE? SUSE has a hidden gem and that is their deal with SAP, 
where they are the default OS in many SAP environments.

>  Hmm ... time for a "MOREOpenSUSE" fork ... it really is a
>  very good, useful, helpful distro. Used it for a LONG
>  time for both workstations and servers.
>
>  Debian WAS good - but now it's gone way too 'Canonical'
>  for no good reasons whatsoever except to cause problems.
>  A few forks like Devuan may still be OK for now.

Sigh... debian was on my list, as well as devuan.

>  Arch derivs and a few of the BSDs may be your future.
>  Just downloaded the latest 'Dragonfly' yesterday. I'll
>  make a VM out of it for experimental purposes. The
>  biggest BSD prob these days is that the driver database
>  tends to run years behind ... making them better for
>  servers with boring standard hardware.

I think you are right. The more I look the more BSD seems like a good 
choice. It seems Linux is becoming too cloudified and too governed by big 
corporations. I tried to work with the linux foundation once, and it was 
just revolting. I am working with a non-profit now under the linux 
foundation, and it is so sloooooooooooow. It is a miracle they manage to 
get anything done at all. =/

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