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Groups > comp.os.linux.misc > #87133 > unrolled thread
| Started by | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| First post | 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400 |
| Last post | 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200 |
| Articles | 18 on this page of 118 — 16 participants |
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Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 02:21 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 08:46 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:47 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:25 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 09:53 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:35 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-26 22:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-26 16:17 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 00:02 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-27 00:11 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-28 10:32 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Nuno Silva <nunojsilva@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 08:41 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-27 11:04 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:31 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:18 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:42 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 15:01 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 21:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 11:07 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 12:14 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 13:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 17:24 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:37 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 19:36 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-29 22:34 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:09 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 23:29 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-31 21:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:15 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 18:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-06-02 01:46 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 03:01 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:16 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-02 02:58 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-05-29 04:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:38 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 05:09 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 03:10 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-05-31 07:14 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:49 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival TheLastSysop <thelastsysop@dev.null> - 2026-06-01 04:57 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:20 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 19:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 18:30 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:27 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:00 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 03:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 01:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:47 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:36 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:33 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:26 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 17:31 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:49 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-30 09:09 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:17 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-31 07:33 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-31 00:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-06-01 00:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:28 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-31 12:58 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-27 20:51 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival John Ames <commodorejohn@gmail.com> - 2026-05-27 14:02 -0700
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 08:54 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2026-05-28 05:04 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:54 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Andy Burns <usenet@andyburns.uk> - 2026-05-28 09:15 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 12:29 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-28 13:45 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-29 02:50 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:17 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:48 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-30 04:25 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-30 13:20 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 14:16 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Robert Riches <spamtrap42@jacob21819.net> - 2026-05-30 04:00 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 23:41 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:09 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:51 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-28 17:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 22:14 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 04:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 01:53 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:32 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:19 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:52 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:08 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 22:55 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 22:39 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-27 14:10 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2026-05-28 09:05 +1000
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 08:19 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 03:52 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2026-05-28 09:20 +0100
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-28 20:34 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-05-28 21:07 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:40 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> - 2026-06-01 19:12 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-02 10:28 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 01:21 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-29 02:08 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival rbowman <bowman@montana.com> - 2026-05-29 06:41 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2026-06-01 13:23 +0000
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-06-01 23:00 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> - 2026-05-26 09:44 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> - 2026-05-26 04:45 -0400
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2026-05-26 11:38 +0200
Re: Redundancy/Survival "Worst Case" <fritz@spamexpire-202605.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> - 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200
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| From | not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 09:05 +1000 |
| Message-ID | <6a17789e@news.ausics.net> |
| In reply to | #87195 |
The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: > On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >> with it. > > Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper Still here in Australia one person I know with "fibre to the premises" (as opposed to re-using the old copper phone lines for connection from the street to the house) had to have the line fixed within about a year of installation due to a faulty connection that evidently "degraded" somehow over time. Likely a faulty installation, the box they attached to the house wasn't even screwed on very convincingly, but there'll be a lot of that in this contry and probably elsewhere. -- __ __ #_ < |\| |< _#
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 08:19 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10v8qa7$39l9v$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87207 |
On 28/05/2026 00:05, Computer Nerd Kev wrote: > The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote: >> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>> with it. >> >> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper > > Still here in Australia one person I know with "fibre to the > premises" (as opposed to re-using the old copper phone lines for > connection from the street to the house) had to have the line fixed > within about a year of installation due to a faulty connection that > evidently "degraded" somehow over time. > > Likely a faulty installation, the box they attached to the house > wasn't even screwed on very convincingly, but there'll be a lot of > that in this contry and probably elsewhere. > Nothing in that shows that the fibre degraded. Only a connection -- Of what good are dead warriors? … Warriors are those who desire battle more than peace. Those who seek battle despite peace. Those who thump their spears on the ground and talk of honor. Those who leap high the battle dance and dream of glory … The good of dead warriors, Mother, is that they are dead. Sheri S Tepper: The Awakeners.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 03:52 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <ec6dnYCgEcvmaYr3nZ2dnZfqn_adnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87195 |
On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >> with it. > > Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. THOSE will degrade. HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. Humans are a pain in the ass and expensive.
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| From | The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 09:20 +0100 |
| Message-ID | <10v8tsh$3ajmv$2@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87220 |
On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: > On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>> with it. >> >> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper > > The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires > splitters/repeaters. THOSE will degrade. > HUMANS will be required to replace that > stuff. Humans are a pain in the ass and > expensive. > Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix cables And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition possible And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science -- Canada is all right really, though not for the whole weekend. "Saki"
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 20:34 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <UYicndWFJtyzQoX3nZ2dnZfqnPSdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87225 |
On 5/28/26 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote: > On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: >> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>>> with it. >>> >>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >> >> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires >> splitters/repeaters. THOSE will degrade. >> HUMANS will be required to replace that >> stuff. Humans are a pain in the ass and >> expensive. >> > Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix cables > And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition possible > And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science Fixing copper is even easier - and it's already there.
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| From | InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-28 21:07 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <10vaorr$3r8c4$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87244 |
On 5/28/2026 8:34 PM, c186282 wrote: > On 5/28/26 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: >>> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>>>> with it. >>>> >>>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >>> >>> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires >>> splitters/repeaters. THOSE will degrade. >>> HUMANS will be required to replace that >>> stuff. Humans are a pain in the ass and >>> expensive. >>> >> Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix >> cables >> And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition possible >> And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science > > > Fixing copper is even easier - and it's already there. It isn't just the fiber itself, but the other active equipment involved. I live in a Verizon metro area, so unfortunately it's fiber and not copper. I still pay for standalone regulated "POTS over fiber" (not the more common unregulated FiOS Digital Voice offering). It works ~mostly the same, i.e. you can make dial-around calls using Feature Group D Equal Access and I have a TDM-based long-distance service, even though my ONT connects via SIP to a new packet switch. In just the past couple years, there have been several impairments to my service that would not have happened with copper. On one occasion, I came home and had no dial tone, and called Verizon up using VoIP through my cable ISP. I made a stink, since the "POTS" line (albeit fiber) is my only way to reach 911 in an emergency. They gave me a service credit, but could not explain why it randomly stopped working and needed a reboot. When is the last time a 5ESS or DMS100 just "stopped providing dial tone" randomly and needed a reboot? Probably never. On another occasion, I called about another unrelated issue and the idiot offshore tech decided to reboot my ONT *without my consent*, and unnecessarily given I wasn't calling about a line-related issue at all. Well, I let *him* have it and also demanded and got another service credit. But another loss of service (however temporary) that would be impossible on copper. Yes, copper is not perfect, but in actual reality, copper works much more of the time than fiber. There are fewer things that can go wrong. And even though I have a backup battery unit for my service, it's only good for 8 hours. What happens then? I would take a line with a little hum or static over no line at all, especially when most needed. This has all come to a head recently in California - the California regulator has so far protected consumers and stood up to AT&T, unlike other states, and now AT&T has sued California for this and asked the FCC to preempt California's protections - see https://savelandlines.org/ for the high-level details. While I live in an urban area and probably will be fine in a power outage unless I hurt myself, many Californias will be left for dead if they lose their copper POTS line, as it's often the only reliable way to call for help in many areas, esp. with prolonged power outages being common. But the FCC has long ago decided that helping industry increase its already massive profits is now more important than its actual job, protecting the people from industry. P.S. I empathize with the OP here... while I still have cable Internet for the time being (not interested in Verizon's stupid and unnecessary fiber that I never asked for or wanted), I've been questioning why I even have that. Between JavaScript that doesn't work in my browsers, user agent blocking, and just plain bloated and unusable sites, hardly anything on the WWW even works anymore (or is even worth accessing if it still does). Email and Usenet work fine on slow connections and asynchronously. I found a new dial-up ISP[1] in the last month that has good customer service and is still reselling dial-up, and I'm planning to cancel my cable and switch to dial-up. Will save a few bucks and cut some BS out of my life. (And yes, it works just fine on my "POTS over fiber", though for some reason I can only negotiate 33.6k. It's rock solid and will stay up with no drops, though my fellow copper dial-up users tell me they can get speeds in the 40s and 50s, so something about the fiber arrangement seems to be interfering with V.90/V.92 negotiation.) [1] https://www.va.net/dialup
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 13:40 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10vk256$27ab8$5@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87245 |
InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: > though for some reason I can only negotiate 33.6k. 33.6 is as high as you can negioate using digital to audio and audio to digital signal transmission (i.e., standard "modem" working) due to the underlying digitizing rate for all phone calls by the carriers. > so something about the fiber arrangement seems to be interfering with > V.90/V.92 negotiation.) Obtaining speeds higher than 33.6 requires: 1) copper between the modem and the dmarc in the exchange 2) the dmark in the switch being one that can have the analog to digital converter at the end of the copper turned off. The higher speeds work by both ends driving the copper as if it were a digital baseband network link (i.e., somewhat akin to driving ethernet signaling over the line). But, with any analog to digital converters in between mean you can't get better than 33.6. And all the "fiber to your home, with a little box that drives your in house copper as if it were still connected to POTS" means there is a small analog to digital converter in the way (and no one decided to offer the ability to switch it off and drive the copper as digital baseband).
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| From | InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 19:12 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <10vl3kr$2ii0i$1@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87337 |
On 6/1/2026 9:40 AM, Rich wrote: > InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >> though for some reason I can only negotiate 33.6k. > > 33.6 is as high as you can negioate using digital to audio and audio to > digital signal transmission (i.e., standard "modem" working) due to the > underlying digitizing rate for all phone calls by the carriers. > >> so something about the fiber arrangement seems to be interfering with >> V.90/V.92 negotiation.) > > Obtaining speeds higher than 33.6 requires: > 1) copper between the modem and the dmarc in the exchange > 2) the dmark in the switch being one that can have the analog to > digital converter at the end of the copper turned off. > > The higher speeds work by both ends driving the copper as if it were a > digital baseband network link (i.e., somewhat akin to driving ethernet > signaling over the line). > > But, with any analog to digital converters in between mean you can't > get better than 33.6. And all the "fiber to your home, with a little > box that drives your in house copper as if it were still connected to > POTS" means there is a small analog to digital converter in the way > (and no one decided to offer the ability to switch it off and drive the > copper as digital baseband). Yes, I'm aware of the 33.6 ceiling with conversions. I don't think I mentioned it before, but I can get 36000 (not 33600) when calling certain modems. I've gotten it a few times when calling the dial-up ISP here in the US (there is really only one, no matter which reseller you use), but usually just 33600. That demonstrates I can get speeds > 33.6k, but usually the negotiation fails (I can hear it too, it's not happy trying to negotiate V.90/V.92). My point was that copper POTS customers can get speeds in the 40s/50s calling the same service, no problem at all, but I'm not able to do that with my service being delivered over fiber. Dial-up Internet speeds are actually *hampered* by fiber... how ironic is that? So from my (consumer) perspective, fiber is a loser. It's inferior quality and connectivity and it doesn't work in a power outage. There's already coax in my area for CATV so the fiber was redundant to begin with for broadband. They crippled our phone service in favor of another expensive[1] and unregulated service... but it's great for the telco! Now the burden - and cost - of powering phone service is on the consumer. The only scenario in which fiber wins in my book would be where your copper line is fed out of a SLC-96 that doesn't have a reliable power supply in emergencies, in which case if you happen to have enough backup power yourself, fiber would be better since it's passive (GPON). [1] Oh, and even though my service is arguably inferior to copper, I don't pay any less than copper customers; still all the high taxes/fees associated with regulated service (which I have intentionally). So it's not copper that's expensive per se, it's regulated phone service regardless of technology.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-02 10:28 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <9rg2fmxp12.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87350 |
On 2026-06-02 01:12, InterLinked wrote: > On 6/1/2026 9:40 AM, Rich wrote: >> InterLinked <usenet@phreaknet.org> wrote: >>> though for some reason I can only negotiate 33.6k. >> >> 33.6 is as high as you can negioate using digital to audio and audio to >> digital signal transmission (i.e., standard "modem" working) due to the >> underlying digitizing rate for all phone calls by the carriers. > > >>> so something about the fiber arrangement seems to be interfering with >>> V.90/V.92 negotiation.) >> >> Obtaining speeds higher than 33.6 requires: >> 1) copper between the modem and the dmarc in the exchange >> 2) the dmark in the switch being one that can have the analog to >> digital converter at the end of the copper turned off. >> >> The higher speeds work by both ends driving the copper as if it were a >> digital baseband network link (i.e., somewhat akin to driving ethernet >> signaling over the line). >> >> But, with any analog to digital converters in between mean you can't >> get better than 33.6. And all the "fiber to your home, with a little >> box that drives your in house copper as if it were still connected to >> POTS" means there is a small analog to digital converter in the way >> (and no one decided to offer the ability to switch it off and drive the >> copper as digital baseband). > > Yes, I'm aware of the 33.6 ceiling with conversions. > > I don't think I mentioned it before, but I can get 36000 (not 33600) > when calling certain modems. I've gotten it a few times when calling the > dial-up ISP here in the US (there is really only one, no matter which > reseller you use), but usually just 33600. > > That demonstrates I can get speeds > 33.6k, but usually the negotiation > fails (I can hear it too, it's not happy trying to negotiate V.90/V.92). > > My point was that copper POTS customers can get speeds in the 40s/50s > calling the same service, no problem at all, but I'm not able to do that > with my service being delivered over fiber. Dial-up Internet speeds are > actually *hampered* by fiber... how ironic is that? Yes. The signal was digitized at your exchange, then transmitted to the remote exchange. which had a bank of signal processors that would process the digital signal instead of a modem, and get you that V90. I worked for a telco that did precisely this (using the 5ESSS and the Lucent MAX TNT) around year 2000. With fibre and VoIP you have a problem: you are probably using a codec. Maybe a lossy one. > So from my (consumer) perspective, fiber is a loser. It's inferior > quality and connectivity and it doesn't work in a power outage. There's > already coax in my area for CATV so the fiber was redundant to begin > with for broadband. They crippled our phone service in favor of another > expensive[1] and unregulated service... but it's great for the telco! > Now the burden - and cost - of powering phone service is on the consumer. Well, if you want to use dial up modem, you are using the wrong technology. > > The only scenario in which fiber wins in my book would be where your > copper line is fed out of a SLC-96 that doesn't have a reliable power > supply in emergencies, in which case if you happen to have enough backup > power yourself, fiber would be better since it's passive (GPON). > > [1] Oh, and even though my service is arguably inferior to copper, I > don't pay any less than copper customers; still all the high taxes/fees > associated with regulated service (which I have intentionally). So it's > not copper that's expensive per se, it's regulated phone service > regardless of technology. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 01:21 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n7s80tFo1qlU7@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87244 |
On Thu, 28 May 2026 20:34:37 -0400, c186282 wrote: > On 5/28/26 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: >>> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal with it. >>>> >>>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >>> >>> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. >>> THOSE will degrade. >>> HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. Humans are a pain >>> in the ass and expensive. >>> >> Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix >> cables And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition >> possible And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science > > > Fixing copper is even easier - and it's already there. We're in the middle of a thunderstorm which reminds me of a telco tech crouched under his little tent trying to hook a a multitude of wires while his little workspace fill with water...
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 02:08 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <UYicnc-FJtzBsIT3nZ2dnZfqnPQAAAAA@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87248 |
On 5/28/26 21:21, rbowman wrote: > On Thu, 28 May 2026 20:34:37 -0400, c186282 wrote: > >> On 5/28/26 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: >>>> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal with it. >>>>> >>>>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >>>> >>>> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. >>>> THOSE will degrade. >>>> HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. Humans are a pain >>>> in the ass and expensive. >>>> >>> Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix >>> cables And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition >>> possible And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science >> >> >> Fixing copper is even easier - and it's already there. > > We're in the middle of a thunderstorm which reminds me of a telco tech > crouched under his little tent trying to hook a a multitude of wires while > his little workspace fill with water... Sounds "courageous", "dedicated" - a hero figure. Long years back I kinda of WAS that person.
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| From | rbowman <bowman@montana.com> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-29 06:41 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <n7sqolFu3pfU5@mid.individual.net> |
| In reply to | #87264 |
On Fri, 29 May 2026 02:08:11 -0400, c186282 wrote: > On 5/28/26 21:21, rbowman wrote: >> On Thu, 28 May 2026 20:34:37 -0400, c186282 wrote: >> >>> On 5/28/26 04:20, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>> On 28/05/2026 08:52, c186282 wrote: >>>>> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>>>>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>>>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>>>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal with it. >>>>>> >>>>>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >>>>> >>>>> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. >>>>> THOSE will degrade. >>>>> HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. Humans are a >>>>> pain in the ass and expensive. >>>>> >>>> Again,. no, not really. You don send humans under the oceans to fix >>>> cables And fibre junctions are where human access is by definition >>>> possible And fixing fibre connections is not rocket science >>> >>> >>> Fixing copper is even easier - and it's already there. >> >> We're in the middle of a thunderstorm which reminds me of a telco tech >> crouched under his little tent trying to hook a a multitude of wires >> while his little workspace fill with water... > > > Sounds "courageous", "dedicated" - a hero figure. No, just a guy doing a job. Sometimes the job sucks but you do it anyway. Linemen are the same way. When the poles blow over it isn't a nice sunny day but they're out there fixing them. You haven't lived until you've driven a semi through a North Dakota blizzard but you keep on trucking. I'm not sure how much of that attitude is left in Gen Z.
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| From | Rich <rich@example.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 13:23 +0000 |
| Message-ID | <10vk14q$27ab8$4@dont-email.me> |
| In reply to | #87220 |
c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: > On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>> with it. >> >> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper > > The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. > THOSE will degrade. HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. > Humans are a pain in the ass and expensive. Newsflash.... So does your POTS copper line, if you are over the maximum length from the central office where it terminates. The POTS lines also have echo cancelers along the way between you and the central office. And if your wiring is above ground cabling, lightning arrestors, and lots of other bits and pieces that *will also degrade* and that periodically *require humans to replace*. There's nothing magic about copper POTS that makes it significantly more reliable than the alternatives. The reliability of POTS was *all* about the regulatory environment, not the hardware.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-06-01 23:00 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <mg81fmxjks.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87336 |
On 2026-06-01 15:23, Rich wrote: > c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: >> On 5/27/26 09:10, The Natural Philosopher wrote: >>> On 27/05/2026 03:39, c186282 wrote: >>>> Soon the fiber/repeaters will degrade and they'll >>>> have fired all the humans who knew how to deal >>>> with it. >>> >>> Hardly. Fibre does not degrade. Not like copper >> >> The fiber doesn't ... but fiber requires splitters/repeaters. >> THOSE will degrade. HUMANS will be required to replace that stuff. >> Humans are a pain in the ass and expensive. > > Newsflash.... So does your POTS copper line, if you are over the > maximum length from the central office where it terminates. > > The POTS lines also have echo cancelers along the way between you and > the central office. And if your wiring is above ground cabling, > lightning arrestors, and lots of other bits and pieces that *will also > degrade* and that periodically *require humans to replace*. > > There's nothing magic about copper POTS that makes it significantly > more reliable than the alternatives. The reliability of POTS was *all* > about the regulatory environment, not the hardware. There is only the nuance that POTS worked during power failures and fibre doesn't. We need local power backup. And they managed to get the regulators accept this. Oh well... such is life. In Spain after the energy zero we had, the government asked to rethink how to keep the network working for longer on an energy zero. I have not heard anything more about it. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | Marco Moock <mm@dorfdsl.de> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-26 09:44 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <10v3j1q$3jdt3$1@paganini.bofh.team> |
| In reply to | #87133 |
On 26.05.2026 02:21 c186282 c186282 wrote: > Last year, one of my old ISPs, who I still get > SOME services thru, sent a message saying they > would no longer support DIAL-UP ... ie hardline > modem access. Reasonable, as customer-base for that service is shrinking. Too slow for current needs and alternatives like satellite-bases access is available. theworld.com still lists such a service, is that an option for you? > DO still have a hardline phone, they keep raising > the price, trying to get me to quit. It works even > IF all the cell towers and such go down hard. Still > worth the money IMHO. And yea, HAVE had the experience > of all the towers going down. It's called HURRICANE. > The towers, IF still standing, have about three days > of generator power. Then ........ Amount of customers is shrinking, spare parts for old exchanges getting more expensive etc. > Admittedly dial-up is NOT good with modern, ultra- > cluttered bullshit-laden web pages. WILL usually > work though, if you're REALLY patient. > > However you CAN at least do e-mail and a few other > things. In case of disasters SOME basic stuff will > still work. > > But this back-redundancy is rapidly disappearing. > This leaves us with NOTHING in the event of > cyberwar or even natural disasters. Telephony is nowadays often done via VoIP - the old ISDN (or other digital protocols) is being phased out. In such a case, VoIP is most likely also affected.
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| From | c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-26 04:45 -0400 |
| Message-ID | <Ooydne-JUtsAwIj3nZ2dnZfqn_SdnZ2d@giganews.com> |
| In reply to | #87143 |
On 5/26/26 03:44, Marco Moock wrote: > On 26.05.2026 02:21 c186282 c186282 wrote: > >> Last year, one of my old ISPs, who I still get >> SOME services thru, sent a message saying they >> would no longer support DIAL-UP ... ie hardline >> modem access. > > Reasonable, as customer-base for that service is shrinking. > Too slow for current needs and alternatives like satellite-bases access > is available. > > theworld.com still lists such a service, is that an option for you? > >> DO still have a hardline phone, they keep raising >> the price, trying to get me to quit. It works even >> IF all the cell towers and such go down hard. Still >> worth the money IMHO. And yea, HAVE had the experience >> of all the towers going down. It's called HURRICANE. >> The towers, IF still standing, have about three days >> of generator power. Then ........ > > Amount of customers is shrinking, spare parts for old exchanges getting > more expensive etc. > >> Admittedly dial-up is NOT good with modern, ultra- >> cluttered bullshit-laden web pages. WILL usually >> work though, if you're REALLY patient. >> >> However you CAN at least do e-mail and a few other >> things. In case of disasters SOME basic stuff will >> still work. >> >> But this back-redundancy is rapidly disappearing. >> This leaves us with NOTHING in the event of >> cyberwar or even natural disasters. > > Telephony is nowadays often done via VoIP - the old ISDN (or > other digital protocols) is being phased out. > In such a case, VoIP is most likely also affected. I fully realize how The Tech has changed. However the POINT of this post was to wonder if this is always a great thing. IMHO, *some* backwards compatibility should always remain. Disaster/War/OOPS! never goes away.
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| From | "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-26 11:38 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <o86gemxej.ln2@Telcontar.valinor> |
| In reply to | #87143 |
On 2026-05-26 09:44, Marco Moock wrote: > On 26.05.2026 02:21 c186282 c186282 wrote: > >> Last year, one of my old ISPs, who I still get >> SOME services thru, sent a message saying they >> would no longer support DIAL-UP ... ie hardline >> modem access. > > Reasonable, as customer-base for that service is shrinking. > Too slow for current needs and alternatives like satellite-bases access > is available. Here they removed the huge equipment from the exchanges, then rented or sold the space. And that is a lot of money saved. That's the reason they remove copper pair service here, want it or not. -- Cheers, Carlos. ES🇪🇸, EU🇪🇺;
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| From | "Worst Case" <fritz@spamexpire-202605.rodent.frell.theremailer.net> |
|---|---|
| Date | 2026-05-26 17:21 +0200 |
| Message-ID | <d9d5244a3a4bae1da68f24678498c49a@msgid.frell.theremailer.net> |
| In reply to | #87133 |
On Tue, 26 May 2026 02:21:09 -0400, c186282 <c186282@nnada.net> wrote: > Cudos to the HAM radio operators ... they DO keep at it. In many > disaster zones THEY are the only source of info in and out. It's > early 1900s tech, but STILL has a place - ultra robust. Hams have a new toy: LoRa Mesh radios — no license required. These are line of sight (LOS), ultra low power, low bandwidth devices. Typically they are battery powered and controlled by a Bluetooth Android/iPhone App good for short text applications like pagers used to be. They are already nearly ubiquitous in large metropolitan areas. You can buy microcontroller units (MCUs) and 3D-printed cases from catalogs of such things for much less than $100 USD and be up and running in a couple of weeks. Come join the fun! + https://meshtastic.org/ -- Moreover I'm convinced that Reddit must be destroyed. Worst Case
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