Re: random passwords

From	William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Newsgroups	alt.os.linux, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.security.misc
Subject	Re: random passwords
Date	2018-08-29 01:22 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<pm4sgl$i16$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(12 earlier) <plqdcm$hhd$1@gioia.aioe.org> <plrfp6$4bm$1@dont-email.me> <pm20hl$ldd$1@gioia.aioe.org> <pm24ar$fhm$1@dont-email.me> <pm4k6u$10k2$1@gioia.aioe.org>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 2018-08-28, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> wrote:
>> On 2018-08-27, Computer Nerd Kev <not@telling.you.invalid> wrote:
>>> In comp.os.linux.misc Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> wrote:
>>>>     "Uncertain Circuits:
>>>> 
>>>>        When transistor 1 and transistor 2 are switched on, a coupled pair of inverters
>>>>        force Node A and Node B into the same state [left]. When the clock pulse rises
>>>>        [yellow, right], these transistors are turned off. Initially the output of both
>>>>        inverters falls into an indeterminate state, but random thermal noise within the
>>>>        inverters soon jostles one node into the logical 1 state and the other goes
>>>>        to logical 0.
>>>>     "
>>>> 
>>>> It's pretty conventional looking to me. No quantums were tortured on that one.
>>>
>>> Thanks for the link, that article was an interesting read. I'm not
>>> sure about no quantums being tortured though, the root of the whole
>>> thing is the "thermal noise", described later as "random atomic
>>> vibrations". As I said before, I never managed to penetrate deeply
>>> enough into this to understand it properly (and by now I've
>>> forgotten everything that I did understand), but it certainly goes
>>> further into physics than just electronic theory.
>>>
>>> The point is that _if_ you knew how to model the exact behaviour
>>> that causes the "thermal noise", perhaps you could predict it
>>> and thereby find that it isn't truly random. On the other hand,
>>> the general assumption seems to be that it is intrinsically
>>> random, and in practice I'm happy to believe that.
>> 
>> The problem is that the thermal noise comes about because of the
>> interaction of the device with loads of other things in the vicinity.
>> Unless you knew exactly what the state of those other things are (atoms
>> for example) you do not know what their effect is on the thing you are
>> trying to use (the reversed biased junction for example) And there are
>> so so so many other things around that their effect become impossible to
>> predict. 
>> 
>> Now, it may be there are "echos" for example. Something affects the device of
>> interest, that device affects back that something which then comes back
>> and affects the device again. That can produce long time correlations in
>> the output of the device. Ie, most physical devices have such
>> correlations, which, if you understand the device and its environment
>> well, could give you some information about the random stream. Ie,
>> biases need not just be "this device produces more ones than zeros" But
>> "if it produces a one now it has a higher probability of producing a one
>> 10 milliseconds later", even if the average probability of producin one
>> of zero are equal.
>
> Yes, however a circuit that relies on quantum events that
> there is not believed to be any method for calculating regardless
> of practicality should be (at least) more reliable in that regard
> than one that relies on chaotic interactions. The circuit that I
> originally referred to (reverse biased transistor) has been
> described as relying on the effect of "quantum tunnelling" and
> so, presumably, is not reliant on a chaotic system. But, like I
> also said, I failed to find out exactly what "quantum tunnelling"
> means.

A situation is which if one regarded the system as made of particles,
all of the particles wouldbe reflected, but if one regarded it as made
of waves, a tiny bit of the wave would get through. Loosely, the
amplitude squared of the wave that got through, over the amplitude
squared of the incoming wave corresponds in the quantum case to a
probability of that small ratio of the particle coming through. 
Tunneling because for the particles it is as if there had been a tiny
tunnel bored through that barrier to let some particles through. 
That probability is not because on does not understand everything that
influences whether or not the particle can get through, but a raw
probability that just is. 


>

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Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Nobody <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-08-22 16:44 -0500
  Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-22 22:04 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-22 16:22 -0600
      Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 00:29 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Arlen Holder <arlenholder@nospam.net> - 2018-08-23 01:37 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 09:41 +0200
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 11:19 +0000
            random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 14:05 +0000
              Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-23 10:39 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 16:33 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 16:57 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:07 +0000
              Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-23 09:47 -0500
                Re: random passwords Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-08-24 10:16 +0200
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:46 +0100
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-24 09:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-08-25 21:57 +1000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 13:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2018-08-25 20:05 +0000
              Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:50 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 16:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 18:49 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-09-01 13:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-09-01 15:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-09-01 16:54 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-04 07:37 +0100
              Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-23 12:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:38 -0600
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:47 -0600
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:20 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-08-24 05:10 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 02:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-24 01:56 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 20:13 -0600
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:42 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 11:55 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 08:37 -0400
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 13:51 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 12:41 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-25 02:03 +0000
                Re: random passwords Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2018-08-25 11:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-25 07:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-27 20:10 -0400
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 00:17 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-27 20:52 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-27 22:31 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 10:23 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 14:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-28 23:00 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 01:22 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 07:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 12:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 19:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 17:46 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 06:53 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-30 07:48 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 19:07 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-31 00:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-31 03:10 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-31 12:26 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 23:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 23:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-24 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-09-03 07:23 -0400
              Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 17:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:46 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:51 -0600
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-24 02:35 +0000
              Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 11:13 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 17:24 +0000
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 13:17 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-25 21:28 -0500
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-26 01:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-26 14:15 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 15:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 09:30 -0500
                Re: random passwords Michael Black <mblack@pubnix.net> - 2018-08-26 11:44 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-26 16:40 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-28 13:29 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 14:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:17 +0100
                Re: random passwords Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-08-27 06:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 08:15 +0100
                Re: random passwords Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2018-08-27 22:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords azigni <azigni@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-26 12:55 -0600
                Re: random passwords Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2018-08-26 19:19 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 16:09 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 21:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:19 +0100
                Re: random passwords Doug McIntyre <merlyn@dork.geeks.org> - 2018-08-26 00:41 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 06:48 -0500
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 19:49 +0200
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-08-26 18:52 -0400
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-27 00:06 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-26 21:01 -0400
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 16:59 +0000
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-23 18:46 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 13:03 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 00:33 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 18:43 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 05:16 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 23:43 -0600
                secure file distribution Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-25 17:05 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:26 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades elvis-85650@notatla.org.uk - 2018-08-23 19:06 +0000

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