Re: random passwords

From	William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca>
Newsgroups	alt.os.linux, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.security.misc
Subject	Re: random passwords
Date	2018-08-23 17:27 +0000
Organization	A noiseless patient Spider
Message-ID	<plmqqr$5vu$1@dont-email.me> (permalink)
References	(5 earlier) <plm57g$p91$2@dont-email.me> <878t4xgouh.fsf_-_@miko.siamics.net> <plmiso$i0s$1@dont-email.me> <plmoj30rsv@news1.newsguy.com> <plmq9p$svo$3@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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On 2018-08-23, Rich <rich@example.invalid> wrote:
> In comp.os.linux.misc Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> wrote:
>> On 08/23/2018 11:12 AM, Rich wrote:
>>> So 208 billion possible combinations.  But at 1 billion tests per
>>> second, brute forcing that one will take, on average [1] 104 seconds
>>> and at most 208 seconds.  So, eight characters, just lowercase, not
>>> secure.
>> 
>> All very well if you have the file of encrypted passwords handy.
>
> Which every single one of the recent (last 5 years or so at least)
> password breaches has been.
>
>> On the other hand, if you are trying to break into my stock market
>> account, or my bank account, you must do it over the internet and
>> there is no way you can send them a billion probe passwords per
>> second.  I would be surprised if they would take even 200 passwords a
>> second.  Furthermore, after a few failures in a row, they will lock
>> out my account.  And to get at my file of encrypted passwords, they
>> would need to break into my machine through the Internet (and my
>> firewalls (one hardware, one software) do not accept unsolicited
>> attempts).
>
> Yes, but note what all of the recent history password attacks have
> been.  Some cracker managed to get "service X" to reveal their stored,
> hashed, salted, password file.  So their attack is not going to be "try

Nope. Some attacker got X to reveal their password files which were not
encrypted/hashed/salted at all. 
This was for customer ease, since they could send the customer their
password if they forgot it. 

> to attack "jeandavid@stock.account.com" online over the 'net.  It is
> going to be "try to find a way to gain "stock.account.com"'s stored
> password hashes.  If they manage that, then they can obtain the ability
> to perform 1B (or whatever level their hardware investment provides)
> tests per second, against everyone at "stock.account.com".
>
>> At some point, the black hats will resort to breaking into my house,
>> or using torture on me to get my passwords.  I want my passwords to
>> be a little bit weaker than that.
>
> Well, yea, no one wants the XKCD method of obtaining their password to
> occur (https://xkcd.com/538/).  But the bigger bang for the buck attack
> for the black hats is exactly what they have been doing.  Attack "site
> x" to try to obtain its hashed passwords list.  Then break the
> passwords offline.  There, they will usually find enough low hanging
> fruit that unless you are POTUS, the fact that your one password
> remains unbroken out of the 20,000 users of "stock.account.com" means
> they will ignore you rather than XKCD#538 you.
>

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Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Nobody <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-08-22 16:44 -0500
  Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-22 22:04 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-22 16:22 -0600
      Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 00:29 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Arlen Holder <arlenholder@nospam.net> - 2018-08-23 01:37 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 09:41 +0200
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 11:19 +0000
            random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 14:05 +0000
              Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-23 10:39 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 16:33 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 16:57 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:07 +0000
              Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-23 09:47 -0500
                Re: random passwords Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-08-24 10:16 +0200
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:46 +0100
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-24 09:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-08-25 21:57 +1000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 13:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2018-08-25 20:05 +0000
              Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:50 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 16:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 18:49 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-09-01 13:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-09-01 15:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-09-01 16:54 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-04 07:37 +0100
              Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-23 12:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:38 -0600
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:47 -0600
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:20 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-08-24 05:10 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 02:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-24 01:56 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 20:13 -0600
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:42 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 11:55 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 08:37 -0400
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 13:51 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 12:41 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-25 02:03 +0000
                Re: random passwords Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2018-08-25 11:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-25 07:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-27 20:10 -0400
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 00:17 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-27 20:52 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-27 22:31 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 10:23 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 14:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-28 23:00 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 01:22 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 07:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 12:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 19:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 17:46 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 06:53 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-30 07:48 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 19:07 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-31 00:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-31 03:10 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-31 12:26 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 23:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 23:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-24 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-09-03 07:23 -0400
              Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 17:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:46 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:51 -0600
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-24 02:35 +0000
              Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 11:13 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 17:24 +0000
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 13:17 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-25 21:28 -0500
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-26 01:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-26 14:15 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 15:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 09:30 -0500
                Re: random passwords Michael Black <mblack@pubnix.net> - 2018-08-26 11:44 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-26 16:40 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-28 13:29 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 14:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:17 +0100
                Re: random passwords Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-08-27 06:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 08:15 +0100
                Re: random passwords Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2018-08-27 22:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords azigni <azigni@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-26 12:55 -0600
                Re: random passwords Charlie Gibbs <cgibbs@kltpzyxm.invalid> - 2018-08-26 19:19 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 16:09 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 21:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:19 +0100
                Re: random passwords Doug McIntyre <merlyn@dork.geeks.org> - 2018-08-26 00:41 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 06:48 -0500
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 19:49 +0200
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-08-26 18:52 -0400
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-27 00:06 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-26 21:01 -0400
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 16:59 +0000
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-23 18:46 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 13:03 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 00:33 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 18:43 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 05:16 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 23:43 -0600
                secure file distribution Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-25 17:05 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:26 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades elvis-85650@notatla.org.uk - 2018-08-23 19:06 +0000

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