Re: random passwords

From	not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev)
Newsgroups	alt.os.linux, comp.os.linux.misc, comp.security.misc
Subject	Re: random passwords
Date	2018-08-25 02:03 +0000
Organization	Aioe.org NNTP Server
Message-ID	<plqdcm$hhd$1@gioia.aioe.org> (permalink)
References	(7 earlier) <plmiso$i0s$1@dont-email.me> <plmvbn$ehd$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net> <plnn7d$ag4$1@dont-email.me> <plnpvr$m2h$1@tncsrv09.home.tnetconsulting.net> <plonfi$v8i$1@dont-email.me>

Cross-posted to 3 groups.

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In comp.os.linux.misc The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> On 24/08/18 03:13, Grant Taylor wrote:
>> On 08/23/2018 07:32 PM, The Natural Philosopher wrote:
>>> What does 'truly random' mean though?
>> 
>> I can not define it, but I do believe that there are a number of good 
>> definitions of what random is.? Especially if you ask cryptologists.
>> 
>> I would start by pointing you Bruce Schneier's direction.
>> 
>> 
> There are random sequences yes, but any single instance cannot be 
> considered random. Surely?
> 
> You ask for a random integer between 0 and 100 and I say '35', That's 
> neither random nor not.
> 
> If you ask me 100 times and I always say 35, then thats NOT radnom.

Yes, randomity is a separate (and much broader) matter to password
generation. "Truly random" is technically in contrast to
pseudo-random. The matter here is not the result, but how it was
obtained, and whether science has any theory that can calculate
exactly how the method for obtaining the "random" data operates.

We don't know exactly how the human brain works, but unsurprisingly
we have some fairly good insights into many of its higher level
processes and these at least limit the degree of randomity that
is exposed. Personally I would consider the brain to be a random
data source at its core, but biased by an incalculable and extremely
intricate chain of probabilities (one of which, no doubt, being
to give up and violently hurl the keyboard through a nearby window).

In general usage, if you want true randomity in a system, you use
a hardware True Random Number Generator (TRNG). This will tap into
some spooky force on the edge of scientific theory like
radioactivity or quantum physics to generate data from events that
are truly unpredictable. Well, either that or we just haven't
figured out how to predict them yet...

Most popular is a electronic circuit using a reversed biased
transistor, which results in a truly random output voltage (perhaps
with a certain bias). This is apparantly due to "quantum
tunnelling". I once tried to work out what "quantum tunnelling" is,
but I don't know what "quantum tunnelling" is, and maybe that's
good, because if I did know, maybe it wouldn't work. :)

Further on the topic... To remove the bias from a TRNG circuit (if
there is any), you generally use a further algorithum such as the
Von Neumann process (miraculously turned up by searching the web
for "Von random") to eliminate this bias. Now if one is to believe
that the core of human reasoning is random, then by removing the
bias from the output, the resulting data, generated by a human,
would be truly random and without bias.

It's an interesting thought, but I'm not sure how to apply it.
Least of all to password generation.

> Its the same facile argument as is applied to the unlikelihood of THIS 
> universe. As opposed to any other.
> 
> Random is the wrong adjective. We are talking unguessabillity.
> is 999999999 a 'random password'?
> 
> 
> If you dont KNOW that is all the same integer,  it is.

Indeed. Err... [starts to rethink a random password generator that
he wrote the other day].

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True_random_number_generator#Software_whitening

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Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Nobody <noreply@mixnym.net> - 2018-08-22 16:44 -0500
  Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-22 22:04 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-22 16:22 -0600
      Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 00:29 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Arlen Holder <arlenholder@nospam.net> - 2018-08-23 01:37 +0000
        Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 09:41 +0200
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 11:19 +0000
            random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 14:05 +0000
              Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-23 09:47 -0500
                Re: random passwords Wouter Verhelst <w@uter.be> - 2018-08-24 10:16 +0200
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:46 +0100
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-24 09:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Daniel60 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2018-08-25 21:57 +1000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-25 13:32 +0100
              Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:50 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 16:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-23 18:49 +0100
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-09-01 13:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-09-01 15:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-09-01 16:54 +0000
                Re: random passwords Richard Kettlewell <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2018-09-04 07:37 +0100
              Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 15:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-23 12:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:38 -0600
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:47 -0600
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:20 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jasen Betts <jasen@xnet.co.nz> - 2018-08-24 05:10 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 02:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-24 01:56 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords Wildman <best_lay@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-24 10:30 -0500
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 20:13 -0600
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-24 11:42 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 11:55 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 08:37 -0400
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-24 13:51 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-24 12:41 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-25 02:03 +0000
                Re: random passwords Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2018-08-25 11:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-25 07:49 -0400
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:12 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-27 23:40 +0000
                Re: random passwords Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2018-08-27 20:10 -0400
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 00:17 +0000
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-27 20:52 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-27 22:31 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 10:23 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-28 14:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-28 23:00 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 01:22 +0000
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 07:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:37 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 12:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 19:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-29 17:46 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 06:53 +0100
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-30 07:48 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-30 19:07 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-31 00:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-31 03:10 +0100
                Re: random passwords Chris Elvidge <chris@mshome.net> - 2018-08-31 12:26 +0100
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-29 23:36 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-29 11:35 +0100
                Re: random passwords not@telling.you.invalid (Computer Nerd Kev) - 2018-08-29 23:45 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-24 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-09-03 07:23 -0400
              Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:02 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 17:25 +0000
                Re: random passwords William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 17:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-23 17:46 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-23 18:07 +0000
                Re: random passwords Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 12:51 -0600
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-24 02:35 +0000
              Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 11:13 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 17:24 +0000
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-25 13:17 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-25 20:27 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-25 21:28 -0500
                Re: random passwords Jean-David Beyer <jeandavid8@verizon.net> - 2018-08-26 01:19 -0400
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: random passwords Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-26 14:15 +0000
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 15:18 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 09:30 -0500
                Re: random passwords Michael Black <mblack@pubnix.net> - 2018-08-26 11:44 -0400
                Re: random passwords John Hasler <jhasler@newsguy.com> - 2018-08-26 16:40 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords Allodoxaphobia <knock_yourself_out@example.net> - 2018-08-28 13:29 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-28 14:32 +0100
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:17 +0100
                Re: random passwords Melzzzzz <Melzzzzz@zzzzz.com> - 2018-08-27 06:21 +0000
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 08:15 +0100
                Re: random passwords Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2018-08-27 22:44 +0000
                Re: random passwords azigni <azigni@yahoo.com> - 2018-08-26 12:55 -0600
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 16:09 -0500
                Re: random passwords Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2018-08-26 21:32 +0000
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 21:11 -0500
                Re: random passwords The Natural Philosopher <tnp@invalid.invalid> - 2018-08-27 07:19 +0100
                Re: random passwords Doug McIntyre <merlyn@dork.geeks.org> - 2018-08-26 00:41 -0500
                Re: random passwords Robert Heller <heller@deepsoft.com> - 2018-08-26 06:48 -0500
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Marc Haber <mh+usenetspam1118@zugschl.us> - 2018-08-23 19:49 +0200
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Bud Frede <frede@mouse-potato.com> - 2018-08-26 18:52 -0400
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-27 00:06 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Dan Espen <dan1espen@gmail.com> - 2018-08-26 21:01 -0400
          Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-23 16:59 +0000
            Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-23 18:46 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 13:03 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 00:33 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 18:43 -0600
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Eli the Bearded <*@eli.users.panix.com> - 2018-08-24 05:16 +0000
                Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades Grant Taylor <gtaylor@tnetconsulting.net> - 2018-08-23 23:43 -0600
                secure file distribution Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2018-08-25 17:05 +0000
              Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades William Unruh <unruh@invalid.ca> - 2018-08-24 02:26 +0000
    Re: Vulnerability Affects All OpenSSH Versions Released in the Past Two Decades elvis-85650@notatla.org.uk - 2018-08-23 19:06 +0000

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