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Groups > comp.mobile.android > #147344 > unrolled thread

Re: OT: spam phone calls

Started by"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
First post2025-03-21 13:51 +0100
Last post2025-05-13 22:55 +1000
Articles 20 on this page of 168 — 31 participants

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Contents

  Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-03-21 13:51 +0100
    Re: OT: spam phone calls Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-03-21 11:23 -0400
      Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-03-21 12:32 -0400
        Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-03-21 16:46 +0000
        Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-21 18:52 +0000
          Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 08:00 -0400
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-04-03 12:14 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-03 14:22 +0200
                Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-07-01 09:17 -0400
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-02 19:53 +1000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-02 12:35 +0200
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-02 22:09 +1000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-02 20:20 +0200
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-03 19:28 +1000
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> - 2025-07-03 12:39 +0100
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-07-02 14:40 +0000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-07-03 09:05 +0100
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-03 11:33 +0200
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-07-03 12:18 +0100
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-03 13:32 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls NY <me@privacy.net> - 2025-07-03 22:07 +0100
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-04 03:17 +0200
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-07-05 19:03 +0000
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-07-05 21:14 +0000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-07-06 13:21 +0100
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> - 2025-07-06 13:21 +0000
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-07-06 14:03 +0000
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-06 18:56 +1000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-06 19:49 +1000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls tony sayer <tony@bancom.co.uk> - 2025-07-06 19:35 +0100
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls James Heaton <heatonandmoore@gmail.com> - 2025-07-06 19:57 +0100
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-07-06 13:18 +0100
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-07-06 14:04 +0000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-07 19:03 +1000
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-07-07 16:38 +0100
                                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Java Jive <java@evij.com.invalid> - 2025-07-07 17:20 +0100
                                    OT: floppies (was: Re: OT: spam phone calls) "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-07-07 17:43 +0100
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-07-03 16:26 +0100
                        Tap to pay [Was: Re: OT: spam phone calls] "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-03 20:04 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-04 19:35 +1000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-04 11:46 +0200
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> - 2025-07-04 11:12 +0000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-04 13:24 +0200
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-07-05 01:32 +0100
                                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-05 20:15 +1000
                                  Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-05 19:55 +0200
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-07-03 11:20 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-03 12:43 +0200
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-03 23:00 +1000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-07-03 20:50 +1000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-07-03 19:29 +0000
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls "J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk> - 2025-07-03 20:55 +0100
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-07-05 19:13 +0000
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-07-03 22:40 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-07-05 19:18 +0000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls NY <me@privacy.net> - 2025-07-03 22:13 +0100
            Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-03 14:13 +0200
        Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-03-22 14:53 +0100
          Re: OT: spam phone calls Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-03-22 12:10 -0400
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-03-22 17:06 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Newyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam> - 2025-03-22 13:24 -0400
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-03-22 22:43 +0100
              Re: OT: spam phone calls David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-03-22 20:36 +0000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 08:27 -0400
            Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 08:22 -0400
          Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 08:07 -0400
            Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-03 14:19 +0200
              Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 09:14 -0400
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-04-03 18:10 +0200
          Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-28 23:01 +1000
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-28 19:42 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-28 21:04 +0100
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-29 17:37 +0000
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-04-29 20:18 +0200
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 20:54 +0200
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-04-29 21:19 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-30 19:06 +0000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-04-30 22:04 +0200
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-05-01 16:54 +0000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-05-01 19:01 +0200
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:30 +1000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Bob Eager <news0009@eager.cx> - 2025-05-01 18:06 +0000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:26 +1000
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 14:11 +0200
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> - 2025-05-03 15:08 +0100
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls Paul <nospam@needed.invalid> - 2025-05-03 15:04 -0400
                                Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-05-03 23:41 +0200
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-05-03 19:26 +0000
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Jörg Lorenz <hugybear@gmx.net> - 2025-04-30 06:36 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-30 09:04 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-30 19:01 +0000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:34 +1000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-30 18:53 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-29 20:27 +1000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> - 2025-04-29 15:03 +0100
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-29 16:21 +0100
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-29 17:58 +0000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-30 10:13 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-01 00:07 +1000
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Woody <harrogate3@ntlworld.com> - 2025-04-30 15:36 +0100
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-30 18:50 +0000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:39 +1000
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-05-03 19:23 +0000
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 20:09 +0200
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-01 00:02 +1000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> - 2025-04-29 18:30 +0100
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-29 17:48 +0000
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:44 +1000
            Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 11:57 +0200
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Graham J <nobody@nowhere.co.uk> - 2025-04-29 11:09 +0100
                Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 12:36 +0200
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2025-04-29 11:48 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 13:14 +0200
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:54 +1000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-29 20:29 +1000
                Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 12:39 +0200
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-04-30 13:36 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-03 21:56 +1000
            Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-05-24 10:17 +0100
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-05-24 17:05 +0000
    Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-03-21 16:10 +0000
      Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-03-21 12:34 -0400
        Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-03-21 16:52 +0000
      Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-03-21 16:48 +0000
        Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-03-21 17:11 +0000
    Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-03-21 18:11 +0000
      Re: OT: spam phone calls micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> - 2025-04-03 08:28 -0400
        Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-03 14:37 +0200
    Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-08 21:55 +1000
      Re: OT: spam phone calls "Alan K." <alan@invalid.com> - 2025-04-08 08:10 -0400
        Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-08 13:52 +0100
          Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-08 20:33 +0000
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-09 11:45 +0100
              Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-10 09:16 +0100
                Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-10 09:33 +0100
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-10 14:40 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-04-29 21:23 +1000
                  Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-28 19:13 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-04-28 18:59 +0000
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-04-29 18:37 +0000
                        Browser lockup and other various subjects... AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-04-29 21:49 +0000
                          Re: Browser lockup and other various subjects... Frank Slootweg <this@ddress.is.invalid> - 2025-04-30 14:43 +0000
                            Re: Browser lockup and other various subjects... AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-04-30 16:39 +0000
                              Re: Browser lockup and other various subjects... Siard <xx@xx.invalid> - 2025-04-30 23:24 +0200
                                Re: Browser lockup and other various subjects... AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-04-30 22:00 +0000
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls David Wade <g4ugm@dave.invalid> - 2025-04-28 21:19 +0100
                    Re: OT: spam phone calls knuttle <keith_nuttle@yahoo.com> - 2025-04-28 16:51 -0400
                      Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 12:42 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2025-04-29 11:35 +0000
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2025-04-29 15:35 +0100
                            Re: OT: spam phone calls Spike <aero.spike@mail.com> - 2025-04-29 15:06 +0000
                              Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 20:15 +0200
                          Re: OT: spam phone calls "Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid> - 2025-04-29 20:17 +0200
                        Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-29 12:57 +0100
        Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-08 20:23 +0000
        Re: OT: spam phone calls bad sector <forgetski@_INVALID.net> - 2025-04-08 17:06 -0400
      Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-04-08 18:55 +0000
        Re: OT: spam phone calls David Woolley <david@ex.djwhome.demon.invalid> - 2025-04-09 14:16 +0100
        Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-13 22:52 +1000
          Re: OT: spam phone calls Mark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid> - 2025-05-13 17:04 +0000
            Re: OT: spam phone calls AJL <noemail@none.com> - 2025-05-13 18:05 +0000
              Re: OT: spam phone calls Richmond <dnomhcir@gmx.com> - 2025-05-13 19:33 +0100
      Re: OT: spam phone calls Arno Welzel <usenet@arnowelzel.de> - 2025-04-09 12:21 +0200
        Re: OT: spam phone calls ant@zimage.comANT (Ant) - 2025-04-09 19:54 +0000
          Re: OT: spam phone calls Hank Rogers <Hank@nospam.invalid> - 2025-04-09 17:07 -0500
          Re: OT: spam phone calls JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> - 2025-04-10 09:18 +0100
            Re: OT: spam phone calls Davey <davey@example.invalid> - 2025-04-28 19:10 +0100
        Re: OT: spam phone calls Daniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org> - 2025-05-13 22:55 +1000

Page 3 of 9 — ← Prev page 1 2 [3] 4 5 6 7 8 9  Next page →

#149601

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-07-04 11:46 +0200
Message-ID<chkkjlxaer.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#149600
On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
> 
> <Snip>
> 
>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet 
>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several 
>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because 
>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>
>> Dave
>>
> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken 
> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in 
> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job 
> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!

Really?

NFC has existed for years.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#149602

FromTweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
Date2025-07-04 11:12 +0000
Message-ID<1048cu1$pngo$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149601
Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
> On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
>> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
>> 
>> <Snip>
>> 
>>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet 
>>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several 
>>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because 
>>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>> 
>>> Dave
>>> 
>> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken 
>> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in 
>> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job 
>> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!
> 
> Really?
> 
> NFC has existed for years.
> 

The standard wasn’t even defined until 2003

https://www.thamestechnology.co.uk/inspiration/history-of-contactless-payments-a-timeline

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#149603

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-07-04 13:24 +0200
Message-ID<a9qkjlxsei.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#149602
On 2025-07-04 13:12, Tweed wrote:
> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>> On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
>>> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
>>>
>>> <Snip>
>>>
>>>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet
>>>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several
>>>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because
>>>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>>>
>>>> Dave
>>>>
>>> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken
>>> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in
>>> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job
>>> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!
>>
>> Really?
>>
>> NFC has existed for years.
>>
> 
> The standard wasn’t even defined until 2003
> 
> https://www.thamestechnology.co.uk/inspiration/history-of-contactless-payments-a-timeline

That's an enormous time in technology :-D

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

[toc] | [prev] | [next] | [standalone]

#149617

From"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
Date2025-07-05 01:32 +0100
Message-ID<1049rrb$13i9s$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149603
On 2025/7/4 12:24:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-07-04 13:12, Tweed wrote:
>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>> On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
>>>>
>>>> <Snip>
>>>>
>>>>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet
>>>>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several
>>>>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because
>>>>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>>>>
>>>>> Dave
>>>>>
>>>> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken
>>>> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in
>>>> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job
>>>> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!
>>>
>>> Really?
>>>
>>> NFC has existed for years.
>>>
>>
>> The standard wasn’t even defined until 2003
>>
>> https://www.thamestechnology.co.uk/inspiration/history-of-contactless- 
>> payments-a-timeline
> 
> That's an enormous time in technology :-D
> 
Daniel said his story was "in about 2000", so saying the standard wasn't 
defined until 2003 is a valid thing to say!
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

One of my tricks as an armchair futurist is to "predict"  things that 
are already happening and watch people tell me it will never happen.
Scott Adams, 2015-3-9

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#149620

FromDaniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org>
Date2025-07-05 20:15 +1000
Message-ID<104atvu$1e5bj$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149617
On 5/07/2025 10:32 am, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> On 2025/7/4 12:24:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-07-04 13:12, Tweed wrote:
>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet
>>>>>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several
>>>>>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because
>>>>>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken
>>>>> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in
>>>>> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job
>>>>> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> NFC has existed for years.
>>>>
>>> The standard wasn’t even defined until 2003
>>>
>>> https://www.thamestechnology.co.uk/inspiration/history-of-contactless- payments-a-timeline 
>>>
>> That's an enormous time in technology :-D
>>
> Daniel said his story was "in about 2000", so saying the standard wasn't 
> defined until 2003 is a valid thing to say!

O.K., so it *MAY* have been 2005'ish!! ;-P Hey, it might have even been 
2010'ish.

(I lived in that one place for over thirty years.)
-- 
Daniel70

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#149629

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-07-05 19:55 +0200
Message-ID<ei5ojlxe7s.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#149617
On 2025-07-05 02:32, J. P. Gilliver wrote:
> On 2025/7/4 12:24:58, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>> On 2025-07-04 13:12, Tweed wrote:
>>> Carlos E.R. <robin_listas@es.invalid> wrote:
>>>> On 2025-07-04 11:35, Daniel70 wrote:
>>>>> On 4/07/2025 1:26 am, David Wade wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>> <Snip>
>>>>>
>>>>>> .. for me much simpler than trying to ease a card out of the wallet
>>>>>> where it invariably jams, which I have to do as there are several
>>>>>> cards in there. In most cases I will have also used my phone because
>>>>>> it has my loyalty card stored in it as well....
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Dave
>>>>>>
>>>>> .... and, in a related manner, in about 2000, to pay for my Chicken
>>>>> Dinner, I went to hand my Credit Card to the Staff Member .... and, in
>>>>> doing so, passed the Card over the Card Reader machine and BEEB, Job
>>>>> Done!! First I knew of THAT ability!!
>>>>
>>>> Really?
>>>>
>>>> NFC has existed for years.
>>>>
>>>
>>> The standard wasn’t even defined until 2003
>>>
>>> https://www.thamestechnology.co.uk/inspiration/history-of- 
>>> contactless- payments-a-timeline
>>
>> That's an enormous time in technology :-D
>>
> Daniel said his story was "in about 2000", so saying the standard wasn't 
> defined until 2003 is a valid thing to say!

Ah, I see. The about 2000 did not register. Sorry.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#149553

FromDavey <davey@example.invalid>
Date2025-07-03 11:20 +0100
Message-ID<1045lh1$40a3$2@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149548
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 09:05:08 +0100
JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

> On 02/07/2025 10:53, Daniel70 wrote:
> > How many times have people lost their 'phones .... so there goes
> > all their Banking information .... and you could just about
> > guarantee that they haven't got all their precious Family Photos
> > saved somewhere else either!!  
> 
> 
> 
> There was someone on one of the 'consumer' programmes complaining
> that they lost ALL their photographs when their phone was stolen -
> going back many years.
> 
> I despair quite often in the supermarket when the person in front of
> me spends ages trying to pay using their phone.
> 
> Never seen the advantage in doing so.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 

I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
A lot of people were ready to kill him.

-- 
Davey.

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#149554

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-07-03 12:43 +0200
Message-ID<ff3ijlxeku.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#149553
On 2025-07-03 12:20, Davey wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 09:05:08 +0100
> JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
>> On 02/07/2025 10:53, Daniel70 wrote:
>>> How many times have people lost their 'phones .... so there goes
>>> all their Banking information .... and you could just about
>>> guarantee that they haven't got all their precious Family Photos
>>> saved somewhere else either!!
>>
>>
>>
>> There was someone on one of the 'consumer' programmes complaining
>> that they lost ALL their photographs when their phone was stolen -
>> going back many years.
>>
>> I despair quite often in the supermarket when the person in front of
>> me spends ages trying to pay using their phone.
>>
>> Never seen the advantage in doing so.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> 
> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
> A lot of people were ready to kill him.

If he had used his card, he still would have needed to enter the bank 
account on his phone to move enough cash into his account and wasted the 
same time.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#149560

FromDaniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org>
Date2025-07-03 23:00 +1000
Message-ID<1045utk$633l$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149554
On 3/07/2025 8:43 pm, Carlos E.R. wrote:
> On 2025-07-03 12:20, Davey wrote:

<Snip>

>> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
>> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
>> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
>> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
>> A lot of people were ready to kill him.
> 
> If he had used his card, he still would have needed to enter the bank 
> account on his phone to move enough cash into his account and wasted the 
> same time.
> 
.... or he might have determined what he was actually able to afford, 
either with the Cash he had or the available Credit on his Card.
-- 
Daniel70

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#149555

FromDaniel70 <daniel47@eternal-september.org>
Date2025-07-03 20:50 +1000
Message-ID<1045n9v$4k34$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149553
On 3/07/2025 8:20 pm, Davey wrote:

<Snip>

> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.

Yeap, common occurrance!

> A lot of people were ready to kill him.
> 
Well, Fortunately/unfortunately, the Op Shop is seldom that busy!! ;-P
-- 
Daniel70

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#149582

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2025-07-03 19:29 +0000
Message-ID<6866da06$0$19$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#149553
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 11:20:17 +0100, Davey wrote:

> On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 09:05:08 +0100 JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:

[snip]

> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
> A lot of people were ready to kill him.

When I notice someone ahead of me in line take out a notebook, that's a 
bad sign. One of those people who carries around hundreds of coupons. 
Coupons are OK, but why can't they decide which ones they're going to use 
and get them out in advance? These people often have to argue with the 
checker about EVERY item, searching the bags for it.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Jesus loves the little zygotes All the zygotes in the world Jesus gives
them birth defects Missing fingers, crooked necks Jesus loves the little
zygotes of the world" [Frank Zindler]

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#149585

From"J. P. Gilliver" <G6JPG@255soft.uk>
Date2025-07-03 20:55 +0100
Message-ID<1046n8d$3vej0$5@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149582
On 2025/7/3 20:29:10, Mark Lloyd wrote:
[]

> When I notice someone ahead of me in line take out a notebook, that's a

(At first there I thought you meant something like what I'm typing this 
on! Visions of waiting for Windows to boot ... then I remembered we call 
them laptops these days.)

> bad sign. One of those people who carries around hundreds of coupons.
> Coupons are OK, but why can't they decide which ones they're going to use
> and get them out in advance? These people often have to argue with the
> checker about EVERY item, searching the bags for it.
> 
Indeed. On the (infrequent) occasions I use a coupon, I place it on the 
belt near (on top of, if possible) the item to which it relates.
-- 
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)Ar@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Don't cry because it's over, smile because it happened

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#149634

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2025-07-05 19:13 +0000
Message-ID<6869794b$0$20$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#149585
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 20:55:56 +0100, J. P. Gilliver wrote:

> On 2025/7/3 20:29:10, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> []
> 
>> When I notice someone ahead of me in line take out a notebook, that's a
> 
> (At first there I thought you meant something like what I'm typing this
> on! Visions of waiting for Windows to boot ... then I remembered we call
> them laptops these days.)
> 
>> bad sign. One of those people who carries around hundreds of coupons.
>> Coupons are OK, but why can't they decide which ones they're going to
>> use and get them out in advance? These people often have to argue with
>> the checker about EVERY item, searching the bags for it.
>> 
> Indeed. On the (infrequent) occasions I use a coupon, I place it on the
> belt near (on top of, if possible) the item to which it relates.

I do too.

OT: Your sig reminded me of how I felt after seeing the total solar 
eclipse last year. If was mostly cloudy so at first I just saw a few 
glimpses of crescent sun. Then the clouds went away just in time to see 
totality. That lasted less than 2 minutes, but it was something I really 
wanted to see and am likely to not get another chance.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." [Abbie Hoffman]

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#149587

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-07-03 22:40 +0200
Message-ID<ce6jjlxpt2.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#149582
On 2025-07-03 21:29, Mark Lloyd wrote:
> On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 11:20:17 +0100, Davey wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 09:05:08 +0100 JMB99 <mb@nospam.net> wrote:
> 
> [snip]
> 
>> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
>> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
>> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
>> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
>> A lot of people were ready to kill him.
> 
> When I notice someone ahead of me in line take out a notebook, that's a
> bad sign. One of those people who carries around hundreds of coupons.
> Coupons are OK, but why can't they decide which ones they're going to use
> and get them out in advance? These people often have to argue with the
> checker about EVERY item, searching the bags for it.
> 

On my normal supermarket (Carrefour) they have an app, and the app 
generates a QR code for the cashier with all the bargain coupons that 
there are. Instantly.

If you mean coupons that you have to stick into a card, those are very 
rare here.

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#149635

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2025-07-05 19:18 +0000
Message-ID<68697a78$0$21$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#149587
On Thu, 3 Jul 2025 22:40:12 +0200, Carlos E.R. wrote:

[snip]

> On my normal supermarket (Carrefour) they have an app, and the app
> generates a QR code for the cashier with all the bargain coupons that
> there are. Instantly.
> 
> If you mean coupons that you have to stick into a card, those are very
> rare here.

The store I usually go to does have e-coupons that you can add to your 
card while at home (from their webisie) and just scan it once in the 
store. However, there are still a lot of paper coupons the send in the 
mail. That's a personalized service, so they could use e-coupons for that, 
but they don't.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger." [Abbie Hoffman]

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#149589

FromNY <me@privacy.net>
Date2025-07-03 22:13 +0100
Message-ID<1046rpm$bvip$3@dont-email.me>
In reply to#149553
On 03/07/2025 11:20, Davey wrote:

> I had to wait behind somebody at the checkout the other day who worked
> on his 'phone, removed several items one at a time from his purchases,
> then had to do mobile banking while still at the checkout to move enough
> cash into his account to be able to use the 'phone to pay.
> A lot of people were ready to kill him.

Am I unusual? After I've unloaded everything from my trolley onto the 
belt and I'm waiting for the person in front to finish paying, I get my 
phone out and take my credit card out of its inside pocket. That way, I 
am ready to pay as soon as the assistant presents me with the bill - I 
don't have to stat faffing around with finding it and getting it out. 
Maybe that's a male thing...

There's less need at self-service tills because there isn't anyone 
waiting behind me: I've not yet seen all of a store's tills being used 
at the same time, so there's always been a vacant till for the person 
behind me to go to.

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#147563

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-04-03 14:13 +0200
Message-ID<kja2clxjk3.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#147557
On 2025-04-03 14:00, micky wrote:
> Sorry it's taken so long to reply.
> 
> In comp.mobile.android, on 21 Mar 2025 18:52:57 GMT, Frank Slootweg
> <this@ddress.is.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> micky <NONONOmisc07@fmguy.com> wrote:
>> [...]
>>
>>> You're a lot like me.   I use my landline 95% of the time.  I only turn
>>> on the cell when I go out, and not even always then.
>>
>>   Hmmm!? Do you have another ('dumb'/'feature') mobile phone, besides
>> your smartphone?
> 
> No, just one smartphone.
> 
>>   If not, then how do you 'turn on' the smartphone when you go out?
>> Turning it on, implies it's turned off [1]
> 
> Yes.
>> and turning on ('booting') a
>> smartphone takes quite some time and effort.
> 
> Not much effort, just push the power button and hold it for 3 or 4
> seconds.  I used to hold it until it vibrated, 5 or 6 seconds but that's
> not required.   By the time I get to the car it's fully on. No one is
> calling me anyhow so it if I have no phone for a minute or two, it
> doesnt' matter.

Takes over two full minutes to boot my phone. Push the button, then wait 
(minutes). Enter the pin code. Wait. Enter the desktop code.

...

-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#147364

From"Carlos E.R." <robin_listas@es.invalid>
Date2025-03-22 14:53 +0100
Message-ID<g0s2blxm7g.ln2@Telcontar.valinor>
In reply to#147349
On 2025-03-21 17:32, micky wrote:
> In comp.mobile.android, on Fri, 21 Mar 2025 11:23:42 -0400, Newyana2
> <newyana@invalid.nospam> wrote:
> 
>> On 3/21/2025 8:51 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:
>>
>>> Unfortunately, as they are faking the caller-id number, and they rotate
>>> their numbers, you are probably blocking some innocent person, and not
>>> really blocking the spammers. That said, I also block them.
>>>
>>
>>      The chance that a number from Columbus, Ohio is a
>> real person trying to reach me personally is pretty much
>> zero. Even with the local numbers, a legit caller is very
>> unlikely.
>>
>>    This approach is not like what you're describing, blocking
>> a large list of blacklisted numbers. I just get the call and
>> wait if I don't recognize the number. If they leave no
>> message, then I block it. If they leave a message, I pick
>> up and apologize for screening. They invariably chuckle and
>> say they understand.
>>
>>    I haven't found that scammers are rotating through real
>> numbers. they seem to use thesame ones repeatedly.
>> Sometimes they spoof, but often it's things like salespeople
>> using an actual phone. The same number might call several
>> times per day. So blocking just a few numbers works well
>> in my experience. I also set my phone for a silent first
>> ring, so if someone is blocked I don't even have to know it.
>>
>> (This is on my landline phone/answering machine. I don't
>> know about cellphones. I don't turn on my Android phone
>> often enough to care about scam calls. And I don't give out
>> that number, so I don't check messages.)
> 
> You're a lot like me.   I use my landline 95% of the time.  I only turn
> on the cell when I go out, and not even always then.   Only 4 pople have
> my cellphone number and 3 of them have probably lost it. (When I was
> visiting my brother, a friend of his, his wife, and his son, all called
> me, but they called me on my home phone, not my cell!  And didn't get
> the messages until I got home. )

Over here, people use the landline less and less. Young people don't 
even have one. Nobody I know phones me on the land line, except my very 
old neighbours who are unable to manage a mobile.

Of the people that do have a landline, many keep it because the internet 
supplier is a phone company and forces them to have a landline. Some 
then unplug it.

I actually redirect my landline to a mobile, which then runs an antispam 
app.


-- 
Cheers, Carlos.

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#147367

FromNewyana2 <newyana@invalid.nospam>
Date2025-03-22 12:10 -0400
Message-ID<vrmncm$9t1s$1@dont-email.me>
In reply to#147364
On 3/22/2025 9:53 AM, Carlos E.R. wrote:

>> You're a lot like me.   I use my landline 95% of the time.  I only turn
>> on the cell when I go out, and not even always then.   Only 4 pople have
>> my cellphone number and 3 of them have probably lost it. (When I was
>> visiting my brother, a friend of his, his wife, and his son, all called
>> me, but they called me on my home phone, not my cell!  And didn't get
>> the messages until I got home. )
> 
> Over here, people use the landline less and less. Young people don't 
> even have one. Nobody I know phones me on the land line, except my very 
> old neighbours who are unable to manage a mobile.
> 
> Of the people that do have a landline, many keep it because the internet 
> supplier is a phone company and forces them to have a landline. Some 
> then unplug it.
> 
> I actually redirect my landline to a mobile, which then runs an antispam 
> app.
> 

   It's similar here. Cellphones are increasingly required for
some transactions. When we got COVID shots during the
pandemic, I had to stand in the old losers' line and show
my drivers license to an impatient college student because
I didn't have the data on a cellphone. It wasn't too bad,
though. My hair is gray enough that they just assume I'm
a dimwitted old man and most of them put up with me.

    I currently have a landline that's VOIP. I think it costs
$16/month. Why? Because it's convenient. The sound is
good. It has a handy answering machine. I don't have
to charge it. People call me from their cellphones and want
to pretend that it works well. It doesn't. The sound is
often poor.

    My $40 TracFone costs me $20 every 3 months. I keep
it in my glove compartment, turned off. If I need to make
a call when away from home, I use it. Why do I do that?
Because I don't want people to be able to text me. I don't
want people interrupting when I'm doing errands or taking
a walk. I'm not a surgeon or a drug dealer. Anyone trying to
reach me can wait until I get home. I also don't shop online
via cellphone. I don't use Ubers. I don't call DoorDash. I
don't use apps. I know how to read a map. I don't like the
way that cellphones collapse space/time. If I'm out walking
in the woods, enjoying spring sunlight, I have no interest
in someone interrupting me to ask if I want to bid on a job
or meet next Tuesday for coffee. That can wait until I get
home.

   I think it's gradually become a lifestyle thing. People are
living through their cellphones, like a kind of cockpit. That's
their home. For young people it's constant connection. It's
become normal to see people walking down the street fixated
on their cellphone.

   Awhile back I said something to my girlfriend's 50 year old son
about how he seems very busy at night on his cellphone. I
though he was texting friends. Or maybe Facebooking? No.
He said he spends hours on dating sites, swiping, chatting
and occasionally getting laid. It's interesting to me how different
people use their cellphones. Some are just constantly scrolling
Instagram and begin to get anxious if they put their cellphone
in their pocket. The online theater has become more real for
them than their actual life.

   So I don't think it has much to do with telephoning anymore.
Most people don't really need to get phone calls when away
from home. They just like the mobile lifestyle. And increasingly
it's an inclusive lifestyle. It's a different way of living.

    Some time
ago I stopped a young woman in another city. I was slightly
lost. "Do you happen to know if this cross street is Powers St?"
She was very nice. She'd been walking, holding her cellphone,
earphones in. After a moment she told me, yes, it's Powers St.
It wasn't until sometime later that I realized she had looked
it up! By asking a simple, common question I had told her that
I didn't have a cellphone. She would never imagine asking anyone.
I would never imagine being able to look it up while out walking.
She was walking in Apple's music app. I was walking on a maple-
lined street during summer, looking at a variety of architecture
styles. Neither of us regarded the other's world as relevant.

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#147370

FromMark Lloyd <not.email@all.invalid>
Date2025-03-22 17:06 +0000
Message-ID<67deee01$0$22$882e4bbb@reader.netnews.com>
In reply to#147367
On Sat, 22 Mar 2025 12:10:58 -0400, Newyana2 wrote:

[snip]

>    It's similar here. Cellphones are increasingly required for
> some transactions. When we got COVID shots during the pandemic, I had to
> stand in the old losers' line and show my drivers license to an
> impatient college student because I didn't have the data on a cellphone.
> It wasn't too bad,
> though. My hair is gray enough that they just assume I'm a dimwitted old
> man and most of them put up with me.

I got my first shots in Mar 2021. I had to make a reservation on a website 
(there were limited ones available) and show the email acknowledgment 
(printout) to get in.

>     I currently have a landline that's VOIP. I think it costs
> $16/month. Why? Because it's convenient. The sound is good. It has a
> handy answering machine. I don't have to charge it. People call me from
> their cellphones and want to pretend that it works well. It doesn't. The
> sound is often poor.

Yes, that's what I have too (over fiber). I changed from the old copper 
lines in about 2006 because of the poor call quality.

>     My $40 TracFone costs me $20 every 3 months. I keep
> it in my glove compartment, turned off. If I need to make a call when
> away from home, I use it. Why do I do that?
> Because I don't want people to be able to text me. I don't want people
> interrupting when I'm doing errands or taking a walk. I'm not a surgeon
> or a drug dealer. Anyone trying to reach me can wait until I get home. I
> also don't shop online via cellphone. I don't use Ubers. I don't call
> DoorDash. I don't use apps. I know how to read a map. I don't like the
> way that cellphones collapse space/time. If I'm out walking in the
> woods, enjoying spring sunlight, I have no interest in someone
> interrupting me to ask if I want to bid on a job or meet next Tuesday
> for coffee. That can wait until I get home.

I always considered SMS to be for things that don't require immediate 
response.

-- 
Mark Lloyd
http://notstupid.us/

"If the factory pays taxes and the church does not, it follows that the
church will some day own the factory." -- Lemuel K. Washburn, Is The
Bible Worth Reading And Other Essays

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