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[CM] What was your first home computer?

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  [CM] What was your first home computer? RS Wood  <rsw@therandymon.com> - 2017-04-17 11:01 +0000
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2017-04-17 15:05 -0400
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> - 2017-04-18 11:45 +0100
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2017-04-18 11:14 -0400
          Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Roger Blake <rogblake@iname.invalid> - 2017-04-18 15:27 +0000
            Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-04-18 15:47 +0000
            Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2017-04-18 11:52 -0400
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-18 14:46 -0400
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2017-04-18 16:52 -0400
          Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-18 14:40 -0400
            Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? "Kerr Mudd-John" <admin@127.0.0.1> - 2017-04-18 21:14 +0100
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-18 14:32 -0400
          Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ahem A Rivet's Shot <steveo@eircom.net> - 2017-04-18 20:10 +0100
            Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-04-18 22:46 +0300
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Rich <rich@example.invalid> - 2017-04-18 21:04 +0000
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk> - 2017-04-18 21:47 +0000
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andy Leighton <andyl@azaal.plus.com> - 2017-04-18 17:57 -0500
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-18 23:40 -0400
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Jason Howe <jason@tatooine.smbfc.net> - 2017-04-19 04:34 +0000
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? JimP. <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 11:59 -0500
                      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? scott@alfter.diespammersdie.us (Scott Alfter) - 2017-04-19 18:17 +0000
                      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Jason Howe <jason@tatooine.smbfc.net> - 2017-04-19 18:45 +0000
                      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-19 19:59 -0400
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-04-19 03:28 -0300
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-04-19 12:55 +0300
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 05:40 -0500
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Nyssa <Nyssa@flawlesslogic.com> - 2017-04-19 10:02 -0400
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-19 12:49 -0400
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Bob Eager <news0006@eager.cx> - 2017-04-19 15:44 +0000
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? "J. Clarke" <j.clarke.873638@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 22:05 -0400
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Richard Thiebaud <thiebauddick2@aol.com> - 2017-04-19 12:05 -0400
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? JimP. <solosam90@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 12:11 -0500
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-19 12:44 -0400
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? bartc <bc@freeuk.com> - 2017-05-14 11:22 +0100
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-04-19 13:38 -0400
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Morten Reistad <first@last.name.invalid> - 2017-04-20 07:09 +0200
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2017-04-19 13:58 -0400
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Mike Spencer <mds@bogus.nodomain.nowhere> - 2017-04-19 02:37 -0300
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> - 2017-04-20 11:47 +0100
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Osmium <r124c4u102@comcast.net> - 2017-04-20 08:56 -0500
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-04-20 17:07 +0300
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Larry Sheldon <lfsheldon@gmail.com> - 2017-04-21 22:18 -0500
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Anssi Saari <as@sci.fi> - 2017-04-21 14:10 +0300
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-04-21 15:00 +0300
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? jmfbahciv <See.above@aol.com> - 2017-04-21 12:53 +0000
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2017-04-21 15:01 -0400
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2017-04-21 23:35 +0300
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2017-04-18 15:44 -0400
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Brian Reay <no.sp@m.com> - 2017-04-18 22:23 +0100
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Jon Elson <jmelson@wustl.edu> - 2017-04-17 14:38 -0500
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Alan Frisbie <Usenet03_REMOVE@Flying-Disk.com> - 2017-04-17 18:17 -0700
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2017-04-17 20:06 -0700
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2017-04-18 22:50 -0700
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-19 12:38 -0400
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? isw <isw@witzend.com> - 2017-04-17 20:41 -0700
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? ANTant@zimage.com (Ant) - 2017-04-17 23:00 -0500
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-04-17 22:13 -0700
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-18 14:27 -0400
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Walter Banks <walter@bytecraft.com> - 2017-04-18 12:02 -0400
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Dave Garland <dave.garland@wizinfo.com> - 2017-04-18 21:58 -0500
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-04-19 10:09 -0400
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-19 12:52 -0400
        Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-04-19 16:41 -0400
          Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? The Real Bev <bashley101@gmail.com> - 2017-04-19 20:31 -0700
            Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-04-20 10:28 -0400
              Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> - 2017-04-21 10:47 +0100
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Huge <Huge@nowhere.much.invalid> - 2017-04-21 09:50 +0000
                Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-04-21 08:46 -0400
                  Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> - 2017-04-21 18:00 +0100
                    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> - 2017-04-21 20:19 -0400
                      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ian McCall <ian@eruvia.org> - 2017-04-22 11:18 +0100
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? "Jack Myers" <jmyers@n6wuz.net> - 2017-04-19 10:35 -0700
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Andreas Kohlbach <ank@spamfence.net> - 2017-04-19 17:06 -0400
      Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? songbird <songbird@anthive.com> - 2017-04-19 16:29 -0400
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Mok-Kong Shen <mok-kong.shen@t-online.de> - 2017-04-20 10:49 +0200
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Ivan Shmakov <ivan@siamics.net> - 2017-04-20 10:13 +0000
    Re: [CM] What was your first home computer? Kara M'bola <maxupixu@in.val.it> - 2017-04-22 09:42 +0000

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#13503

In article <rl5ffc5qn7o4u0o86i6b0cpbpsehvtfv2b@4ax.com>,
JimP.  <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
>Speaking of theAtari 400 and Atari 800, I was reading a computer
>magazine article back in the 1980s about them. The Atari company
>decided to save some money and didn't put the little springs in the
>chip holders. These springs kept the chip in its inline socket so that
>heating and cooling didn't lift the chips out of their sockets.
>
>The official fix ? Drop the computer a short distance onto a rugged
>surface like a table.

You sure that's not the Apple III that you're talking about?  I never heard
of 8-bit Ataris needing that kind of fix (never owned one, but I used them
at school), but the Apple III did.

  _/_
 / v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/           Top-posting!
 \_^_/                              >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

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#13504

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 11:59:19 -0500, JimP <solosam90@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 04:34:21 -0000 (UTC), Jason Howe
><jason@tatooine.smbfc.net> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 23:40:29 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>> ...But the speed and greater memory just seemed to be used up with 
>>> the GUI operating system, like I'd moved forward and then back two steps. 
>>> The Atari had more built in hardware (of a more universal kind) and seemed 
>>> snappy enough.
>>>
>>I jumped right from an Atari 8-bit to a 68k Mac about at about the same
>>time.  I too felt that I had whole lot of computer in front of me that
>>was really busy drawing pictures for me.  My Mac turned out to be all
>>sorts of flaky and pretty much swore me off Apple products for 15 years.
>>
>>> I was even lucky, at a local amateur radio flearmarket, I bought bunch of 
>>> Atari ST boards that were in various shape, so I did have spare parts, but 
>>> I just never got my Atari ST going reliably.
>>>
>>> ALmost thirty years later, it was such a different time.  Now, so much 
>>> better hardware is out there on the used market, and if anything breaks 
>>> down, it's easy and cheap to find a replacement.  Circa 1989, the computer 
>>> world was bigger than the hobbyist world, but not by that much.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>>So yeah, my first was a hand-me-down Atari 800 from my Dad.  This was c.
>>1986, I was about 6 years old.  Dad never really did anything with the
>>800 and I didn't see him touch a computer again until the Windows 95
>>era.  C. 1993 when the family got a new Mac, I never really took to it.
>>Neither did Mom (She used to program Wang and IBM minis before kids).  She never
>>felt it was a "real" computer.  Typing this now, I remember when I was
>>about 8 or 9, Mom helped me learn how to program on the Atari in
>>BASIC...that's an awesome memory that just came back :)
>>
>>Anyway, I don't still have that original Atari 800 (I lost it to water
>>damage in the late 90's), but was able to pick up another one a few
>>years ago, and am actually typing this response on it now, using it as a
>>terminal to my linux box.  I do still have my original 810 disk drive,
>>though it is awaiting repairs.
>
> Speaking of theAtari 400 and Atari 800, I was reading a computer
> magazine article back in the 1980s about them. The Atari company
> decided to save some money and didn't put the little springs in the
> chip holders. These springs kept the chip in its inline socket so that
> heating and cooling didn't lift the chips out of their sockets.
>
> The official fix ? Drop the computer a short distance onto a rugged
> surface like a table.

Hrm, as another person posted, pretty sure this was the Apple III, lots
of heat and not enough cooling, so the board warped and the chips
unseated themselves.  

I've been in the guts of my 800 a number of times for hw modifications,
all the chips are very securely socketed.  I've never had any heat
issues with mine over decades of ownership and use.

The only heat related issue I can think of with the 800, is the original
memory cards which were encased in a metal cartridge could over heat if
a memory intesive program was being run. (I never ran into this before I
did my memory upgrade and did away with the original cards).  Atari's
solution was to just remove the casing and put unshielded/cased memory
cards in the slots -- which worked well enough until the XL line came
out and they went to a single board design.

-- 
Jason

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#13510

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, JimP. wrote:

> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 04:34:21 -0000 (UTC), Jason Howe
> <jason@tatooine.smbfc.net> wrote:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 23:40:29 -0400, Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> wrote:
>>> ...But the speed and greater memory just seemed to be used up with
>>> the GUI operating system, like I'd moved forward and then back two steps.
>>> The Atari had more built in hardware (of a more universal kind) and seemed
>>> snappy enough.
>>>
>> I jumped right from an Atari 8-bit to a 68k Mac about at about the same
>> time.  I too felt that I had whole lot of computer in front of me that
>> was really busy drawing pictures for me.  My Mac turned out to be all
>> sorts of flaky and pretty much swore me off Apple products for 15 years.
>>
>>> I was even lucky, at a local amateur radio flearmarket, I bought bunch of
>>> Atari ST boards that were in various shape, so I did have spare parts, but
>>> I just never got my Atari ST going reliably.
>>>
>>> ALmost thirty years later, it was such a different time.  Now, so much
>>> better hardware is out there on the used market, and if anything breaks
>>> down, it's easy and cheap to find a replacement.  Circa 1989, the computer
>>> world was bigger than the hobbyist world, but not by that much.
>>>
>>> Michael
>>>
>>
>> So yeah, my first was a hand-me-down Atari 800 from my Dad.  This was c.
>> 1986, I was about 6 years old.  Dad never really did anything with the
>> 800 and I didn't see him touch a computer again until the Windows 95
>> era.  C. 1993 when the family got a new Mac, I never really took to it.
>> Neither did Mom (She used to program Wang and IBM minis before kids).  She never
>> felt it was a "real" computer.  Typing this now, I remember when I was
>> about 8 or 9, Mom helped me learn how to program on the Atari in
>> BASIC...that's an awesome memory that just came back :)
>>
>> Anyway, I don't still have that original Atari 800 (I lost it to water
>> damage in the late 90's), but was able to pick up another one a few
>> years ago, and am actually typing this response on it now, using it as a
>> terminal to my linux box.  I do still have my original 810 disk drive,
>> though it is awaiting repairs.
>
> Speaking of theAtari 400 and Atari 800, I was reading a computer
> magazine article back in the 1980s about them. The Atari company
> decided to save some money and didn't put the little springs in the
> chip holders. These springs kept the chip in its inline socket so that
> heating and cooling didn't lift the chips out of their sockets.
>
> The official fix ? Drop the computer a short distance onto a rugged
> surface like a table.

Those Ataris had that problem?  I know the Apple III had the problem, and 
the same fix was suggested.

YOu get the choice, unreliable sockets, or having to unsolder before you 
can try a new IC.  I'm not sure which is worse.

   Michael

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#13485

Michael Black <et472@ncf.ca> writes:

> I thought the Atari 520 was great, certainly it was more in my price 
> range.  I spent $300 in 1989 for mine, it was a clearance item.
> 
> It had great potential, and at that point lots of programs (I was buying 
> ST Format that came from the UK, for the cover discs, still floppies then. 
> And I picked up a copy of the Mark Williams C COmpiler when some local 
> dealer was dropping the Atari, so it was cheap.
> 
>  [snip]
>
> But there wsa something else wrong, maybe the reason I got it cheap. 
> Every so often it would scramble a floppy disc, which made it too 
> unreliable, so I eventualy gave up on it.

That's how I learned C.  A neighbor who produced table-top war games
gave me one of his games he'd done up in BASIC to port to C.  It
was to be a learning thing, y'know?

After many hours with colored pens and hi-liters, analyzing a printout
of the BASIC code, I had a nice database that embodied the control
flow in the BASIC program.  And then the Osborne I scrambled the dBase
floppy.

I was so pissed off that I spent weeks writing a program that would
access the floppy at the lowest (software) level, reconstruct and
report out details of directory and every track and sector.  By the
time I had that working slick, I'd learned a lot of C.  I recovered
the data but never got back to the game guy's project.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#13486

Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:

> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?

(Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
paperweights?)

>> I bought an Atari 520ST. A big disappointment. You couldn't do
>> anything with it. It came with the lamest imaginable Basic
>> interpreter and a Logo turtle. I joined a local Atari club, but
>> nobody was interested in programming so I quit.
>
> The Atari ST had several good free C compilers for it, you could write
> whatever software you wanted.

Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of that and wouldn't have known where to
look for them. All I saw was a catalog of pricey software I couldn't
afford. And besides, I wanted to *create* software, not *buy* it.

I did use the builtin Basic to create an 68000 assembler. An arduous
task with the idiotic "IDE." I still remember that project as one of my
best summer vacations. Too bad I never had an opportunity to build
anything with my assembler; the first choice would have been an
assembler written in assembly language.


Marko

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#13487

On 4/19/2017 04:55, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
>
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)

My first was an XTish clone bought from an Iranian (I think, might have 
been an Indian) operating out of a store-used-as-a-factory in the 
Hillsdale Shopping Center.

It had the standare stuff, plus an outrageiously huge 20 megabyte drive 
and a collection of add-on boards to emulate a UTS 20, or a TTY 28.


>>> I bought an Atari 520ST. A big disappointment. You couldn't do
>>> anything with it. It came with the lamest imaginable Basic
>>> interpreter and a Logo turtle. I joined a local Atari club, but
>>> nobody was interested in programming so I quit.
>>
>> The Atari ST had several good free C compilers for it, you could write
>> whatever software you wanted.
>
> Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of that and wouldn't have known where to
> look for them. All I saw was a catalog of pricey software I couldn't
> afford. And besides, I wanted to *create* software, not *buy* it.
>
> I did use the builtin Basic to create an 68000 assembler. An arduous
> task with the idiotic "IDE." I still remember that project as one of my
> best summer vacations. Too bad I never had an opportunity to build
> anything with my assembler; the first choice would have been an
> assembler written in assembly language.


-- 
quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
-- Juvenal

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#13490

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
> 
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
> 
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home
> computers just paperweights?)
> 
I actually used the Franklin to write some software as
well as for word processing and playing the occasional
game or two (anyone remember Beer Run for Apple ][?).

I sold a couple of smallish programs to an outfit that
published an on-disk "magazine" called Softdisk. I still
have my copy of 'em around here somewhere although I
no longer have a compatible system for the disk.

I also ran a (very) small consulting company back when
small businesses were first getting into microcomputers.
Left that when Sperry hired me on for bigger things.

My pop had several other microcomputers for experimenting
and trying to use with amateur radio and packet: Vic20, 
Commodore64, Commodore128, Atari 800 among them. I did a 
couple of BASIC programs for the Vic and Commodores for 
calculating antenna lengths and satellite dishes and such 
for him to play with.

So yeah, they were used as something besides paperweights.

Nyssa, who still has a lot of spare and refurbished 
equipment around currently acting as paperweights until
she finds time to fix 'em up
 

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#13496

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Nyssa wrote:


> Nyssa, who still has a lot of spare and refurbished
> equipment around currently acting as paperweights until
> she finds time to fix 'em up
>
>
I have my monitor raised up a bit by putting a Powermac 6100/66av 
underneath it.  NOt for storage, but because I needed something to raise 
the height.  WHen I got that Powermac, I was going in a different 
direction, but a year or two earlier, I would have been so glad to move to 
it.

I have a low profile DEC or COmpaq (or maybe they were the same by then) 
486 underneath my HP laser printer, just to rasie it's height a bit.

   Michael

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#13492

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:55:24 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
> 
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
> 
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)

My first computer was an Advance 86B:

 http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=507

I used it to write a book on PC-DOS.

-- 
Using UNIX since v6 (1975)...

Use the BIG mirror service in the UK:
 http://www.mirrorservice.org

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#13514

In article <elpev1Fjlr3U14@mid.individual.net>, news0006@eager.cx says...
> 
> On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:55:24 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> 
> > Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
> > 
> >> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> >>
> >>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
> > 
> > (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> > paperweights?)
> 
> My first computer was an Advance 86B:
> 
>  http://www.old-computers.com/museum/computer.asp?c=507
> 
> I used it to write a book on PC-DOS.

First one I used was an IBM 360 at University of Florida, also first one I 
programmed.

First one I was paid to use was a Lockheed running a computer-output 
microfilm system.

First one I owned was a Heathkit Microprocessor Trainer, followed by an H-
89 CP/M machine.

First one I was paid to program was an HP 3000, however I was quickly put 
to work porting everything the company used from that to the PC.

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#13493

On 04/19/2017 05:55 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)

Games, programming, and bulletin boards.

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#13499

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:05:49 -0400, Richard Thiebaud
<thiebauddick2@aol.com> wrote:

>On 04/19/2017 05:55 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
>> paperweights?)
>
>Games, programming, and bulletin boards.

I wrote programs in AmigaBASIC on my A1000 and A500s. A dice program
that roled in one side increments from 1 side up to 1e6 sides. I could
add to each die or all the dice. Some weapons in AD&D did damage of
1d6+1 hit points. I later on wrote a larger program that kept track of
the game calender, how long the adventure took place, trhe to hit
tables, moon rise and set, sun rise and set. Along with lunar phase.
The later is needed when checking for the possiblility of werewolves
about.

Dragon magazine had an article in one of their issues on how to use
dice to decide on the game weather. I wrote a computer program that
gave the result as I felt that the 5 to 10 minutes of dice rolling
could be done better by a computer.
-- 
Jim

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#13495

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
>
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)
>
I wanted one in 1969 or so, so when I finally got one, a KIM-1 in 1979, it 
was basically for the sake of having a computer.  It had 1K of memory, and 
a calculator style keyboard and readout, so there was a limit to what I 
could do with it.  So I learned about computers, and learned to program. 
I'd hand assemble programs, since there was no room for an assembler.

Then in 1981, I got an OSI Superboard II, which was a big leap forward, 
all of 8K of RAM, Microsoft BASIC in ROM, an ascii keyboard, and a video 
interface, hooked up to a surplus monitor that had no case.  So I could do 
more things with it, but still nothing much practical.  I played with 
BASIC, but decided I'd rather stick with assembly language.

It was 1984, when I got a Radio Shack COlor COmputer, with a floppy drive, 
that I finally had a computer that could be used for "useful" things, ie I 
used it for writing, replacing my typewriter with it.  It was still 
limited, but better than before.

It was easier to just buy a new computer ever few years than try to 
upgrade something that wasn't well designed for upgrading, though I know 
people added endless things to their KIM-1s, and I could have added a 
floppy drive to the OSI, but the price was expensive.

   Michael

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#13717

Around 1981 I didn't have a job and had little money so couldn't just 
buy a machine.

I had to build one out of discrete circuits. The first attempt used a 
2.5MHz Z80, had 256 bytes of RAM, and 6kbits of video memory (16x64 text 
display of upper case using 1K x 6 bits). There were also LEDs on data 
bus and bottom 8 bits of address bus.

It had to be programmed in binary, while the processor was halted, by 
stepping through the addresses and setting bits (using an earth wire 
which touched wire loops attached to pins as I couldn't afford switches).

Primitive, but it could do a surprising amount especially once the video 
was in place. Output was on a 24" B&W TV. (4:3 ratio; my current monitor 
is 23" 16:9 so quite a bit smaller.)

The second attempt used a 4MHz Z80, 32KB of DRAM, 8KB (arranged as 16KB 
x 4 bits) of video RAM that could display as 256x256x1 vector graphics 
or 128x128x4 greyscale (plus the original text display), and now an 
actual keyword, and a program in EPROM when it started. But still no 
storage other than cassette tape.

This version had an assembler, primitive compiler (everything 
originating from binary machine code), editor, and had the graphics 
circuit arranged as a frame grabber so I could capture live TV and video 
camera images. (And store them on cassette at 4 seconds per full frame, 
or at several fps at greatly reduced size. With sound on the other 
stereo channel - not digitised)

I also played with floating point, and 3D graphics, and primitive sound 
capture. This was still 1981.

The funny thing is, that these days I wouldn't have a clue how to 
program a lot of this stuff on a modern computer, or it is astonishingly 
complicated (eg. Win 32 GDI etc for graphics).

-- 
bartc

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#13501

On 2017-04-19 5:55 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
>
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)
>

My home built PDP-8 was mostly a challenge to get working. Once I got
focal to run and the standard PDP-8 standard software I pretty much
didn't do anything with it.

I wrote quite a few programs on the OSI a combination of systems
programs, games and some AI stuff I was playing with. I used the OSI to
implement a couple macro languages a lisp like language and trac/SAM.
The OSI based computer was reasonably capable but a one of built using
OSI boards and a case I built that had two back-planes and two floppies.
It was a floppy two holer one motor two slots. It was donated to a
computer museum a few years ago. My surprise was it still booted when we
tried after at least 20 years being powered down when I donated it.

After I bought the PDP-11 it became a working computer that I wrote a
whole lot of embedded system development software on it. I wrote about
80 cross assemblers and about half dozen compilers on the PDP-11.  By
this time I was using UCSD Pascal on the PDP-11 later ran UCSD pascal on
an apple ][ and later yet on an IBM PC.

w..




>>> I bought an Atari 520ST. A big disappointment. You couldn't do
>>> anything with it. It came with the lamest imaginable Basic
>>> interpreter and a Logo turtle. I joined a local Atari club, but
>>> nobody was interested in programming so I quit.
>>
>> The Atari ST had several good free C compilers for it, you could
>> write whatever software you wanted.
>
> Unfortunately, I wasn't aware of that and wouldn't have known where
> to look for them. All I saw was a catalog of pricey software I
> couldn't afford. And besides, I wanted to *create* software, not
> *buy* it.
>
> I did use the builtin Basic to create an 68000 assembler. An arduous
> task with the idiotic "IDE." I still remember that project as one of
> my best summer vacations. Too bad I never had an opportunity to
> build anything with my assembler; the first choice would have been
> an assembler written in assembly language.
>
>
> Marko
>

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#13516

In article <od87b5$vtr$1@gioia.aioe.org>,
Walter Banks  <walter@bytecraft.com> wrote:
>
>On 2017-04-19 5:55 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
>>
>>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>>
>>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
>>
>> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
>> paperweights?)
>>
>
>My home built PDP-8 was mostly a challenge to get working. Once I got
>focal to run and the standard PDP-8 standard software I pretty much
>didn't do anything with it.

For me it was about software, primarily. It still is.

I did a number of basic and 6502 assembly consultancy jobs, some
of them very well paid.

I did an asdic driver for a quite big array of sonars, and I
still see the chip as current in the inventories of the vendors.
It is 507 bytes of very hand-coded 6502 assembly. 511 including the
two start vectors, but they fixed that in hardware later.

The immediate, "naive" version had ~730 bytes, properly
assembled with linkable constants. Then we (mostly I) started
shaving the code. Getting to ~530 was sort of easy, but from
there I struggled. Using instructions as constants, and then
changing the programl to use different instructions so I got
the constants I needed was a quite iterative process.

The real, hard limit was 512 (really 508) bytes of ROM and
2048 bytes of RAM, since that was a finite limit in the version
of 6502 they used.

All timings were based on the instruction times.

-- mrr

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#13502

On Wed, 19 Apr 2017 12:55:24 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
> Robert Swindells <rjs@fdy2.co.uk>:
>
>> On Tue, 18 Apr 2017 22:46:46 +0300, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>> Ok, all this hardware. What did you do with it?
>
> (Nobody has yet offered any responses. Were the home computers just
> paperweights?)

Where was this asked?

Considering the Commodore 64 the most sold computer ever there would had
been a lot paperweights out there.

I learned BASIC and assembly on it.
-- 
Andreas
You know you are a redneck if
you ever been arrested for relieving yourself in an ice machine.

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#13483

I wrote a toy program for an IBM 1620 (yes, cards) circa '64 and
played with someone's Apple ][ in '80 but I finally got my first home
computer in '87.  I made a large hand-raised copper curry pan with
cover, all properly tinned, swapped it even for an Osborne I with a
printer with the extra dBase II package.  Got an 80 column card and a
14" external monitor later; subsequently collected up 8 O1s and my
wife wrote her master's thesis on one of them.

Learned BASIC, Z80 assembler and C on that machine.  I even managed,
after what I still think were some clever hacks, to compile XLisp on
it but it left only enough RAM  to handle a dozen lines of lisp.

It was already obsolete when I got it but I remain grateful that I got
it and started there.  Not a career hacker or techie so it was a sort
of last chance to learn the fundamentals of how hardware and OSs
worked before the basic stuff all became buried in fancy graphics,
difficult addressing schemes, serious O/S technology etc.

The migration to Unix (which I could log into from my O1), then to
Linux at home (with a few years' stopover in MS-DOS 5 until I could
afford a 1st gen Pentium) wasn't hard.

-- 
Mike Spencer                  Nova Scotia, Canada

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#13520

On 2017-04-18 19:46:46 +0000, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> said:

> I bought an Atari 520ST. A big disappointment. You couldn't do anything
> with it. It came with the lamest imaginable Basic interpreter and a Logo
> turtle. I joined a local Atari club, but nobody was interested in
> programming so I quit.

Wow - very, very different experiences. Same machine almost (Atari 520STFM).

My own home computing journey has gone: Spectrum -> C64 -> ST -> Mac LC 
-> various PCs, some interesting, some not -> 12" Powerbook -> various 
Macs -> various Macs plus a gaming PC.

The ST I had was -fantastic-. There's the games, which were good 
(although the sound was a massive disappointment after the C64). But 
further than that it was the first time I really got into useful 
productive software.

1st Word Plus, the incredible Signum. Timeworks. Then there were the 
MIDI ports, so I got into writing music with Steinberg Pro 12 and a 
couple of MIDI keyboards. Emulators - it could run Mac software faster 
than a Mac Plus and with bigger screen space on the utterly gorgeous 
SM124 paper white monitor. I also had a Vortex 286 fitted, meaning I 
could run DOS and code in Turbo Pascal etc..  GST C, for £20, is how I 
taught myself C as well.

We had very different experiences - the ST was one of the most 
productive machines I've ever owned.



Cheers,
Ian

-- 
Check out Proto the album: <http://studioicm.com/proto/>

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#13521

On 4/20/2017 5:47 AM, Ian McCall wrote:
> On 2017-04-18 19:46:46 +0000, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> said:
>
>> I bought an Atari 520ST. A big disappointment. You couldn't do anything
>> with it. It came with the lamest imaginable Basic interpreter and a Logo
>> turtle. I joined a local Atari club, but nobody was interested in
>> programming so I quit.
>
> Wow - very, very different experiences. Same machine almost (Atari 
> 520STFM).
>
> My own home computing journey has gone: Spectrum -> C64 -> ST -> Mac 
> LC -> various PCs, some interesting, some not -> 12" Powerbook -> 
> various Macs -> various Macs plus a gaming PC.
>
> The ST I had was -fantastic-. There's the games, which were good 
> (although the sound was a massive disappointment after the C64). But 
> further than that it was the first time I really got into useful 
> productive software.
>
> 1st Word Plus, the incredible Signum. Timeworks. Then there were the 
> MIDI ports, so I got into writing music with Steinberg Pro 12 and a 
> couple of MIDI keyboards. Emulators - it could run Mac software faster 
> than a Mac Plus and with bigger screen space on the utterly gorgeous 
> SM124 paper white monitor. I also had a Vortex 286 fitted, meaning I 
> could run DOS and code in Turbo Pascal etc..  GST C, for £20, is how I 
> taught myself C as well.
>
> We had very different experiences - the ST was one of the most 
> productive machines I've ever owned.
>
>
>
>
The 1040ST was the most satisfying computer I ever worked with.  An 
instruction set that didn't look like it came out of a science fair 
project, a superb monitor, lot's of incredibly imaginative software.  If 
you weren't happy with what was happening, you could disconnect the hard 
drive and limit the damage.  My hard drive was terribly loud, I fixed 
that with a resistor to slow it down. I quit using the ST to check out 
this "object-oriented" language thing - a much over-hyped idea, and I 
never got back to the ST.  For some reason I focus on the wonderful 
Tempus text editor this morning.

But I agree with the OP, the packed in Basic was a truly awful thing and 
524K bytes had to be a PITA.

I didn't like the "slanted" function keys, I thought they would look 
very dated in a few years. I think that was my biggest gripe.  And, of 
course, the documentation could have been improved.

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