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Re: Python Worst Practices

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  Re: Python Worst Practices Michiel Overtoom <motoom@xs4all.nl> - 2015-02-25 21:58 +0100
    Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-02-28 10:28 +0000
      Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-28 12:56 +0200
        Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-28 06:26 -0800
        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-28 15:43 +0000
        Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-01 19:11 +1100
          Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 01:07 -0800
          Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0200
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:32 +1100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:58 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 10:42 -0700
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 21:21 +0200
                  OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:38 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:01 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 17:34 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:52 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 19:32 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 11:23 -0800
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:59 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-02 10:40 +1300
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-03-01 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 22:10 +0000
                          An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:03 +1100
                          Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:07 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 20:02 +0000
                Re: Python Worst Practices Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:14 -0800
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 08:59 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 14:19 +0200
                      (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 01:39 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 17:30 +0200
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:51 +0100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 19:51 -0800
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-03 15:10 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 05:32 +0100
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:00 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-03 11:40 +0000
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-03 21:43 -0800
                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 15:16 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:41 +0100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 18:55 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 06:45 -0800
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 06:14 +1100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-03-04 11:28 -0800
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 21:33 +0200
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 07:11 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 07:40 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-03-04 14:39 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:36 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-05 20:39 -0500
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-04 20:10 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 19:38 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 07:19 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:16 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 15:39 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 00:00 -0800
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-06 08:31 +0000
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:06 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-06 12:34 +0000
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:03 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-06 08:23 -0800
                                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 20:15 +0200
                                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-03-06 20:26 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-06 14:34 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-05 20:28 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-05 21:45 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 22:10 +0200
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 02:45 +1100
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 18:40 +1300
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 17:56 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 09:05 +0200
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:14 +1100
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 18:38 +1100
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 00:12 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 23:35 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 23:35 -0800
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 10:54 -0500
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 11:45 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 00:23 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 12:00 +1100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism,   language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 01:44 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-03-03 02:09 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 16:18 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 09:17 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-03-03 15:40 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 15:32 +0000
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 15:45 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Uncanny valley of languages Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-03-02 11:54 +0100
                  Re: Uncanny valley of languages Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 18:33 -0800
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:42 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:52 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 20:16 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 07:26 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 22:45 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 22:01 +0100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-01 20:53 -0500
                (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 13:35 +1100
                  Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-01 19:18 -0800
                    Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 17:12 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 11:06 -0800
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 22:21 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-02 23:04 -0500
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 06:32 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:15 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 15:49 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:31 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 07:20 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 08:25 -0800
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 17:02 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-01 22:14 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 06:45 +1100

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#86897 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com>:

> Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and
> named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument
> about whether its users are sufficiently "American".

No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being
talked about.

Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish
theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this:

   Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible
      even though the Bible states it is the word of God.

   Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If
      that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true.

   Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran
      is truer than the Bible!


Marko

PS Before you get out your pitchforks, please note that this posting is
*not* making a statement on the truth in the Bible and/or the Quran.

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#86898 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:16:18 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:

>
>No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being
>talked about.
>

Care to summarize then?

Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should
write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect
and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to
this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement). 

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#86903 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com>:

> Care to summarize then?
>
> Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should
> write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect
> and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to
> this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement).

I don't remember jabbing at anybody. It is fact (proudly proclaimed on
this forum as well) that most English-speakers believe their native
accents are suitable for international communication.


Marko

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#86900 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 6:46:32 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> llanitedave :
> 
> > Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and
> > named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument
> > about whether its users are sufficiently "American".
> 
> No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being
> talked about.
> 
> Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish
> theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this:
> 
>    Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible
>       even though the Bible states it is the word of God.
> 
>    Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If
>       that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true.
> 
>    Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran
>       is truer than the Bible!
> 

Ha! Ha!!
Reminds me of Bertrand Russel's:
Man is said to be a logical animal.
All my life Ive tried to find evidence of that.

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#86905 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com>:
> 
>> Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and
>> named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument
>> about whether its users are sufficiently "American".
> 
> No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being
> talked about.

Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even
the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.

> Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish
> theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this:
[...]



-- 
Steven

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#86909 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 03/04/2015 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> [...]
> 
> 
> 

Wow -- a new level of succinctness!  ;)

--
~Ethan~

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#86910 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:

> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.

English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had
better stick to American spellings.

Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
be very difficult to understand.


Marko

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#86913 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
> 
>> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
>> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.
> 
> English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had
> better stick to American spellings.
> 
> Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
> to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
> the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
> overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
> be very difficult to understand.


Yes, that's exactly what I thought your point was. So I am utterly perplexed
why you said: 

"No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being
talked about."

and gave an irrelevant anecdote about using a source's claim to divinity as
evidence of divinity. It seems to me that people in this thread *do*
understand what is being talked about, but just disagree with your
conclusion about making American English the mandatory spelling for
programs.

As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing
accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it
incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches
to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that
most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly
generic English accent that most people think is American, but within
seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a
full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it.




-- 
Steven

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#86917 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 5 March 2015 at 07:11, Steven D'Aprano <
steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

>
> As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing
> accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it
> incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches
> to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that
> most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly
> generic English accent that most people think is American, but within
> seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a
> full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it.


This is very much the case - any time someone is reacquainted with their
native accent they tend to strongly slip back into it, and it takes some
time to get their more neutral accent back.

A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking
together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough
for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of
multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to
say, and no one will involved realise.

Tim Delaney

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#86918 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote:
> A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking
> together where at least two of their languages match (or are close
> enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and
> out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're
> trying to say, and no one will involved realise.

Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother 
had said the previous ten minutes.  :)

Emile

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#86919 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

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On 5 March 2015 at 09:39, Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> wrote:

> On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote:
>
>> A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking
>> together where at least two of their languages match (or are close
>> enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and
>> out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're
>> trying to say, and no one will involved realise.
>>
>
> Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother had
> said the previous ten minutes.  :)


The phenomenon I'm talking about involves people switching languages
mid-sentence without the participants noticing. It mainly occurs with
people who grew up speaking multiple languages, and commonly switch between
them in their thoughts. If your grandmother learned her second/third/etc
languages after she was a teenager then it's likely she mainly thinks in
one language and translates to others.

It can also be seen with people who have recently had long-term saturation
exposure to a second language - for example, exchange students who have
just come back from a year's stay. When I'd recently returned from Brasil
(20-odd years ago now ...) there was one time when everyone was a native
(Australia) english speaker and had a mix of latin-based second languages -
that was close enough for it to happen.

Tim Delaney

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#86971 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 07:11:21 +1100, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> declaimed the following:

>
>As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing
>accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it
>incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches
>to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that
>most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly
>generic English accent that most people think is American, but within
>seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a
>full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it.

	As an army-brat, I'm not certain of any accent I might have...
especially when one combines that I didn't achieve an "r" sound until fifth
grade, and my "s" is non-standard (low-tongue, rather than classical high
tongue [I just tried, and high-tongue is all "eth"]). Every so often I end
up with a "crick" for "creak", and that "r" is still a bit weak -- if I'm
flustered I start sounding like Elmer Fudd with a hint of Daffy
Duck/Sylvester "wathcally wabbit".

	While, to this one, Irish accents have a, uhm, cuteness about them <G>
-- 
	Wulfraed                 Dennis Lee Bieber         AF6VN
    wlfraed@ix.netcom.com    HTTP://wlfraed.home.netcom.com/

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#86914 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 04/03/2015 19:33, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
>
>> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
>> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.
>
> English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had
> better stick to American spellings.
>
> Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
> to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
> the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
> overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
> be very difficult to understand.
>
>
> Marko
>

This sums up perfectly why you made it onto my dream team so quickly.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86930 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano:
> 
> > Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to
> > have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion.
> 
> Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff
> to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around
> the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that
> overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can
> be very difficult to understand.

You keep talking of accent.
At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo?  I'll be happy to pay<wink>

----------
¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh!

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#86931 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com>:

> You keep talking of accent.
> At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
> Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
> If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
> If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to
> pay<wink>

Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.


Marko

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#86939 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 07:19:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net>
wrote:
>
>Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.
>

Communications skills... the bane of any software developer.
Pronunciation is just another obstacle to cross on top of the natural
barrier that is transmitting complex computer science ideas through
natural language. An ascii file with some code does a much better job
at that.

Most bugs start in a our mouths, no matter how many times we brush our
teeth.

In any case, communication is a two-way process. If you can't
understand British accent, you should make an effort to do so. It will
enrich your communication skills and that is an important skill to
have. Might even land you a better job.

If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your
accent, because you are in your country and people should speak with
your accent and all that bullshit, and you can't understand them and
they should make an effort, waa-waa, that is fine. I'm sure you are
otherwise a a friendly and communicative character.

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#86941 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com>:

> If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your
> accent, because you are in your country

I'm in Finland, mind you. Finnish (the Häme dialect, specifically) is my
native language. I'm not suggesting my international coworkers should
address me in my language, let alone my home dialect.


Marko

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#86993 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
> Rustom Mody:
> 
> > You keep talking of accent.
> > At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
> > Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
> > If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
> > If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to
> > pay<wink>
> 
> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.

I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...

Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours
If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers
how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland.
[Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming?
And is global warming on topic for this list?]
Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about
on/off-topicness.  But someone or other will complain I guess.

If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent'
to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication.

But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to
- to Mark
- to British accent
- to British spellings in software
- to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format


¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this
 https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent.
Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable.

Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone 
objecting to him.

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#86998 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote:
> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Rustom Mody:
>>
>>> You keep talking of accent.
>>> At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking.
>>> Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally.
>>> If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol?
>>> If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to
>>> pay<wink>
>>
>> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate.
>
> I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about...
>
> Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours
> If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers
> how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland.
> [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming?
> And is global warming on topic for this list?]
> Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about
> on/off-topicness.  But someone or other will complain I guess.
>
> If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent'
> to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication.
>
> But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to
> - to Mark
> - to British accent

British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho.  Nobody in 
this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm 
from the South West or the West Country.  Irish, Scottish, Welsh, 
English alone are different.  Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's 
chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian.  Move 50 
miles and you can hear a completely different accent.  British accent 
indeed.

> - to British spellings in software
> - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format
>
>
> ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this
>   https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent.
> Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable.
>
> Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone
> objecting to him.
>

Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination 
against autistic people.  Now there is a not very subtle hint that might 
penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that 
participate here.  Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely 
small or we could have had WWIII.  Which could have happened when Global 
Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits 
using our kettles to make our cuppas.  Now that is seriously brain dead. 
  And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :(

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#87008 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:

> British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in
> this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think
> I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh,
> English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's
> chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50
> miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent
> indeed.

The accents on the British isles are indeed much more diverse than in
the colonies. They can also be very hard to understand, sometimes for
native English-speakers as well.


Marko

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