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Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list

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  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-06-29 18:00 +0100
    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 20:24 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 20:58 +0100
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-06-30 23:14 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 21:36 +0100
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:23 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:52 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:54 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:05 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 11:32 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:37 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:28 +0200
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:22 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:44 +1000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 10:31 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 12:46 +0300
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 14:44 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:07 +0100
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 12:43 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 15:08 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:33 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:18 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:14 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:25 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 16:28 +0300
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:45 -0500
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 15:34 +0000
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:49 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 17:56 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 20:15 +0300
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 18:26 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 11:29 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:16 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 12:29 -0700
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 21:12 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 20:28 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:22 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 10:34 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 14:01 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 14:40 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:48 -0700
                          OT Plague [was Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 02:37 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 08:34 +1000
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 17:30 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 01:24 +0000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:08 -0700
                              Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 11:16 +1000
                                Re: Whatever happened to the Effbot? [was Re: python adds an etc] Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-03 20:31 -0500
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 11:21 +0200
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:11 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 14:09 +0200
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:40 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-08 10:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 19:45 +1000
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 13:00 +0300
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-03 07:12 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 16:21 +0100
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 10:00 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:24 -0700
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 10:01 -0700
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 11:08 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 18:29 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 12:18 -0700
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 03:08 +0000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-04 10:53 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:08 +0100
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 20:07 -0700
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 22:44 -0700
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 08:57 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list feedthetroll@gmx.de - 2013-07-04 01:50 -0700
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-05 15:42 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:44 +1000
                                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 18:36 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 01:44 +1000
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 19:47 +0300
                                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 02:53 +1000
                                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:07 +0300
                                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 03:23 +1000
                                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:50 +0300
                                              Fwd: Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-04 13:06 +0300
                                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steve Simmons <square.steve@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 17:42 +0100
                                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-03 20:10 +0300
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 05:31 -0700
                              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:37 +1000
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:04 +0200
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 00:18 +0100
                        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-02 18:21 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:12 +0100
                            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-07-03 18:56 -0700
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 00:40 +0100
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-04 13:19 +0200
                          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 02:58 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2013-07-03 10:36 +1000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-03 01:51 +0100
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-03 12:01 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:27 +0300
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:36 +0300
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 22:57 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> - 2013-06-30 23:13 +0100
      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 08:37 +0200
        Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 10:55 +0300
          Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 10:56 +0200
            Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-01 14:01 +0000
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 08:00 -0700
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-01 15:06 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 21:34 -0700
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 06:32 +0100
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-02 07:14 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-07-02 18:59 -0400
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2013-07-02 19:06 +0000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> - 2013-07-01 19:33 +0300
              Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-01 20:42 +0200
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-01 22:12 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 09:55 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 17:59 +1000
                Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-01 23:17 +0000
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 08:54 +0200
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 01:43 -0600
                  Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-07-02 10:16 +0200
                    Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-07-02 12:53 +0000
                      Re: python adds an extra half space when reading from a string or list Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-03 00:22 +0000

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#49834

Στις 3/7/2013 8:23 μμ, ο/η Chris Angelico έγραψε:
>>> What are the file permissions (file modes) on all your home
>>> directories? Do you know what they mean?
>>
>>
>> root@nikos [~]# ls -al /home
>> total 88
>> drwx--x--x 22 root     root     4096 Jul  3 20:03 ./
>> drwxr-xr-x 22 root     root     4096 Jun 12 01:21 ../
>> drwx--x--x 14 akis     akis     4096 Apr  5 22:21 akis/
>> same with others just +x for group and others.
>>
>> Does that mean you can easily i.e. 'cd /home/akis/' accessing their home
>> directories?
>
> Yes.

You can cd to the other users home directories but you wont be able to
view their files because of the lack of +r attribute.

But i'll remove it just in case by:

chmod go-x -R /home/whatever_username

>> Yes they do, but cPanel offers some protection against these kind of
methods
>> called "CPHulk" so it wont be easy!
>
> Neat. Now I know how to lock you out of your own account. Five seconds
> with Google brought this up:
>
> http://docs.cpanel.net/twiki/bin/view/11_30/WHMDocs/CPHulk
>
> Can you, by reading that page, tell me what I would have to do to stop
> you from accessing your login?

yes constantly ping my server by faking you ip address as my ip address
so to force CPHulk to refuse to let me login.

Of course the same page provides a means of how to unlock myself in case
that happens.

> Also, CPHulk does not appear to have _any_ protection against
> privilege escalation. It's a completely different thing.

Yes, it does not. Its mostly a way to block nmap requests of pinging and
identifying of services running on the server itself.

-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49760

On 03/07/2013 16:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:36 AM, Νίκος <nikos@superhost.gr> wrote:
>> I will *not* give away my root pass to anyone for any reason but i will open
>> a norla user account for someone if i feel like trusting him and copy my
>> python file to his homr dir to take alook from within.
> Well... well... baby steps. That's something at least. That's still a
> huge level of access, though; with a non-root account on your server,
> I would be able to - I think - read all your customers' code. You
> would have to chroot the user you give, and if you're going to do
> that, you may as well just give the code as a .py file. Really, you
> need to have a MUCH stronger respect for shell access, even non-root.
>
> ChrisA

Nicos

A hard lesson learnt, I think.  I have read most of the responses to 
your posts but kept my contributions to a minimum.  Here's my advice to you:

1.  Don't trust ANYBODY on the internet unless you have thought 
carefully about what you are being offered.
2.  Do seriously consider following advice from this list, especially 
the advice to read external references and documents - obviously subject 
to point 1 :-)
3.  Don't EVER compromise security for some real or imagined deadline - 
your customers will probably grumble if you are late but they will 
likely sue you if you compromise their data.  They'll definitely sue if 
you compromise their money in any way.  Chris taught you a valuable 
lesson - hard but valuable.
4.  Take a few hours out and re-read your recent threads.  Pick out the 
constructive advice you have ignored and follow up on it.  It may take 
days or even weeks to get your head around it but IMHO there is huge 
value to be gained from the exercise.

You have taken some big strides over the past several weeks, supported 
by some *very* patient experts, but it is clear you still have plenty to 
learn - pause, read, digest, reflect and then move forward.

Take care

Steve

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#49762

Στις 3/7/2013 7:42 μμ, ο/η Steve Simmons έγραψε:
>
> On 03/07/2013 16:44, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:36 AM, ����� <nikos@superhost.gr> wrote:
>>> I will *not* give away my root pass to anyone for any reason but i
>>> will open
>>> a norla user account for someone if i feel like trusting him and copy my
>>> python file to his homr dir to take alook from within.
>> Well... well... baby steps. That's something at least. That's still a
>> huge level of access, though; with a non-root account on your server,
>> I would be able to - I think - read all your customers' code. You
>> would have to chroot the user you give, and if you're going to do
>> that, you may as well just give the code as a .py file. Really, you
>> need to have a MUCH stronger respect for shell access, even non-root.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> Nicos
>
> A hard lesson learnt, I think.  I have read most of the responses to
> your posts but kept my contributions to a minimum.  Here's my advice to
> you:
>
> 1.  Don't trust ANYBODY on the internet unless you have thought
> carefully about what you are being offered.
> 2.  Do seriously consider following advice from this list, especially
> the advice to read external references and documents - obviously subject
> to point 1 :-)
> 3.  Don't EVER compromise security for some real or imagined deadline -
> your customers will probably grumble if you are late but they will
> likely sue you if you compromise their data.  They'll definitely sue if
> you compromise their money in any way.  Chris taught you a valuable
> lesson - hard but valuable.
> 4.  Take a few hours out and re-read your recent threads.  Pick out the
> constructive advice you have ignored and follow up on it.  It may take
> days or even weeks to get your head around it but IMHO there is huge
> value to be gained from the exercise.
>
> You have taken some big strides over the past several weeks, supported
> by some *very* patient experts, but it is clear you still have plenty to
> learn - pause, read, digest, reflect and then move forward.
>
> Take care
>
> Steve

Thanks Steven, i keep learning new thing every day that passes by.

-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49722

On Wednesday, July 3, 2013 3:15:15 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
> If my boss gave a random stranger from a mailing list the root
> password to one of our servers, I would say to his face that he had
> betrayed his (our) customers' trust. I would say it with strong
> emphasis and a raised tone, too, and no small heat. The words you
> quote above are perfectly factual and, in my opinion, business-like
> language.

I am guessing Chris (do correct me if wrong) that you are making a theoretical/hypothetical statement.  I guess your boss is not an asshole in matters of things like passwords so you are making a vacuous statement.

[For those not familiar with the terminology: "A implies B is vacuously true, if A is 'grounded' to false. Then B can be anything wild]

Speaking as one who has had to change jobs because of impossible bosses...

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#49744

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 8:04 PM, Antoon Pardon
<antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> If my boss gave a random stranger from a mailing list the root
>> password to one of our servers, I would say to his face that he had
>> betrayed his (our) customers' trust. I would say it with strong
>> emphasis and a raised tone, too, and no small heat. The words you
>> quote above are perfectly factual and, in my opinion, business-like
>> language.
>>
>> ChrisA
>
> But the real question of course is, would your boss see it that way?
> Maybe your boss would, but talking about a random boss, I wouldn't
> bet any money on it.

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 10:31 PM, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> I am guessing Chris (do correct me if wrong) that you are making a theoretical/hypothetical statement.  I guess your boss is not an asshole in matters of things like passwords so you are making a vacuous statement.
>
> [For those not familiar with the terminology: "A implies B is vacuously true, if A is 'grounded' to false. Then B can be anything wild]
>
> Speaking as one who has had to change jobs because of impossible bosses...

Speaking about my current boss, rusi's right that the situation will
never come up. He errs on the side of paranoia, not sloppiness. (And
before I criticize him for the paranoia, I remind myself of this[1]
PHDComics strip.) But if I had a boss who actually did that, then I
would say my piece, and then my continued employment would depend on
how he took it. If he accepts the criticism and moves on, then we look
to damage control; if not, then I look to getting a new job. I don't
think I would ever mind get fired for making that sort of statement -
if it gets me fired, I'm probably happier out of there anyway.

ChrisA

[1] http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=640 - start at
http://www.phdcomics.com/comics/archive.php?comicid=638 for context

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#49718

Op 03-07-13 11:45, Chris Angelico schreef:
> On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 7:21 PM, Antoon Pardon
> <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> Op 03-07-13 02:30, rurpy@yahoo.com schreef:
>>> If your going to point out something negative about someone
>>> then do so politely.  Ask yourself if you were pointing out
>>> incompetence to your boss (or anyone else where impoliteness
>>> could have real consequences for you) if you would say,
>>> "you're incompetent."
>> And so we shift from no problem speaking bluntly or clearly
>> to wording it in a way that wouldn't antagonize your boss
>> too much.
>>
>> Off course that would also mean throwing out remarks like:
>>
>> ] You have betrayed the trust of all your customers.
>>
>> Which seemed to be accepted on this list without a problem.
> If my boss gave a random stranger from a mailing list the root
> password to one of our servers, I would say to his face that he had
> betrayed his (our) customers' trust. I would say it with strong
> emphasis and a raised tone, too, and no small heat. The words you
> quote above are perfectly factual and, in my opinion, business-like
> language.
>
> ChrisA

But the real question of course is, would your boss see it that way?
Maybe your boss would, but talking about a random boss, I wouldn't
bet any money on it.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49667

On 2 July 2013 23:34, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>
> Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> writes:
>> There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
>> someone incompetent.
>
> So even if that term describes their behaviour and manner, you think
> no-one should ever point it out?

Yes. I see no instance where it would be needed or helpful.

>> > So what are the non-insulting terms for
>> >
>> > incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
>> > making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
>> > your site out the air),
>>
>> You just did it.
>
> So you agree the correct term to use *is* “incompetent”, as Anton said.
> Yet you don't want Anton to use the correct term.

What? No, I think you misread what I intended in that post.

I said that rather than attacking Niko's integrity by calling him
incompetent, it is better to, for example, explain to him that he is
"starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in, making changes
on the life server so that any typo you make, can take your site out
the air". Given, of course, that that is what prompted you to want to
call him incompetent in the first place.

Saying "you don't understand what you are doing" and "you are
incompetent" are in this case interchangeable, except one involves
making the other feel hurt. You don't need to do that, nor does it
help anyone.

> Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
> baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone in
> this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use clear
> terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their behaviour.

Firstly, describing someone's behaviour and describing someone's
character are two completely different things. The second is far more
judgemental and unhelpful than the first. Antoon is describing
people's character. You are talking about describing their actions.

Secondly, as I said, I have few objections to the term
"inconsiderate". Fewer still when describing a behaviour.

As for calling someone incompetent, it would be wrong to associate
incompetence with harm to this community. People were not upset -- at
least I was not upset -- from Nikos being incompetent. Many people on
this list lack skills. This is fine, everyone's unlearnt at some
point. Some stay unlearnt forever. People were upset because of his
manner, his demanding, his overbearing, him acting selfishly, etc.

I will never complain to you calling someone rude, especially not
calling someone's actions rude.
I will never complain to you calling someone overbearing, especially
not calling someone's actions overbearing.
I will never complain to you calling someone's actions selfish.
etc.

I may disagree, and I may voice disagreements, but you have right to
speak up if you feel mistreated. Please don't believe I think
otherwise. Calling someone incompetent is an attack, and is not the
same. If you cannot see the difference, I'm not sure what more I can
say.


I feel it is reasonable to continue my correspondence with you
on-list, but if it spawns more than a few more posts I would rather
take it off-list. I have no objections if you would like to Cc Antoon
Pardon in the process, seeing as it's his post involved.

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#49689

On 07/02/2013 05:18 PM, Joshua Landau wrote:
> On 2 July 2013 23:34, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>[...]
>> Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
>> baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone in
>> this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use clear
>> terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their behaviour.
> 
> Firstly, describing someone's behaviour and describing someone's
> character are two completely different things. The second is far more
> judgemental and unhelpful than the first. Antoon is describing
> people's character. You are talking about describing their actions.

In practice there is often little difference.  "You are acting
like an asshole" could be defended as describing a behavior
and "you are rude" as describing a character (rude by nature).

The reality is that few of the people at whom such statements
are aimed will make such fine distinction.  If you use negatively
judgemental statements against other posters, a significant 
number of them will respond to you in kind.  

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#49785

On 3 July 2013 02:21,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On 07/02/2013 05:18 PM, Joshua Landau wrote:
>> On 2 July 2013 23:34, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
>>[...]
>>> Needless to say, I disagree with your position. There is no place for
>>> baseless insults in this community; but when the behaviour of someone in
>>> this community is harmful, then it is entirely appropriate to use clear
>>> terms (e.g. “incompetent”, “inconsiderate”) to describe their behaviour.
>>
>> Firstly, describing someone's behaviour and describing someone's
>> character are two completely different things. The second is far more
>> judgemental and unhelpful than the first. Antoon is describing
>> people's character. You are talking about describing their actions.
>
> In practice there is often little difference.  "You are acting
> like an asshole" could be defended as describing a behavior
> and "you are rude" as describing a character (rude by nature).

"You are acting like an asshole" *is* describing someone's behaviour.
"You are an asshole" is the equivalent describing their character.
In turn, "You are rude" *is* describing their character.

However, I said the "second is far more judgemental and unhelpful than
the first". I stand by that, but don't take that to mean that comments
on people's behaviour cannot be insulting of derogatory, nor that
comments on character have to be insulting. Calling someone rude may
be worse than saying that they are acting rude, but it is not unjust
if they have been rude, for example.

> The reality is that few of the people at whom such statements
> are aimed will make such fine distinction.  If you use negatively
> judgemental statements against other posters, a significant
> number of them will respond to you in kind.

I think most people will take "you are stupid" and "what you've done
is stupid" to have very different levels of hostility, even though the
same thing to be said has been expressed. That does not mean people
will not take offense at the second, but they will take less. I
believe that this does generalise.

Note that I am not advocating calling people's actions stupid, as it
is still just a harsher way of saying "you've made a mistake".

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#49796

On 07/03/2013 05:12 PM, Joshua Landau wrote:
> On 3 July 2013 02:21,  <rurpy@yahoo.com> wrote:
>[...]
>> The reality is that few of the people at whom such statements
>> are aimed will make such fine distinction.  If you use negatively
>> judgemental statements against other posters, a significant
>> number of them will respond to you in kind.
> 
> I think most people will take "you are stupid" and "what you've done
> is stupid" to have very different levels of hostility, even though the
> same thing to be said has been expressed. That does not mean people
> will not take offense at the second, but they will take less. I
> believe that this does generalise.

I think the first is perceived as more hostile not because
of any character vs behavior difference but simply because it
is broader -- the implication is that most anything done
by the person will be stupid rather than one specific action
for the second.

If one compares "you're stupid to have done that" (character)
vs "what you've done is stupid" (behavior), I am not sure 
there is much difference; at least I don't think I'd make 
much distinction.

IOW, I maintain that it is the "stupid" part that results 
in the major part of the recipient's negative reaction.

Of course since neither of us are psychologists this is all 
pretty speculative.

> Note that I am not advocating calling people's actions stupid, as it
> is still just a harsher way of saying "you've made a mistake".

Agreed, 100%.

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#49787

On 3 July 2013 11:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 02-07-13 15:40, Joshua Landau schreef:
>> On 2 July 2013 13:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>>>
>>
>> There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
>> someone incompetent. You can explain to someone that they do not
>> understand what they are doing, but when you attack the character of
>> the person it is no longer acceptable.
>
> This is not an attack of character. Level of skill/competence is
> not in general seen as a character trait.

I disagree. I'm not sure how to argue this, rather than point out that
by "character trait" I'm not talking about "intrinsic trait" but
rather "revolving around who you are". The alternative I posed is
talking about things revolving around specific actions that you have
taken.

> It is something one can
> generally increase if one is willing to work on it, and once
> you acquired it, you don't have to keep your guard for situations
> in which you might loose it.

That's not relevant to whether it's a character trait, á mon avis.

>>> So what are the non-insulting terms for
>>>
>>> incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
>>> making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
>>> your site out the air),
>> You just did it.
>
> But how do I describe this in one word? What conclusion am I allowed
> to make from all this?

That it's worth taking a little more time doing things if it makes
sure you aren't harming the person on the other end.

> Can I say:

> He displayed a pattern of incompetence?

WIth trepidation. Saying what someone did is "incompetent" is quite judgemental.

> He has been blundering about?

With trepidation. This is just another way of saying the same thing.

> His skill level was unimpressive?

With trepidation. This refers to his character, but is still quite
light and far lower than the level of aggression that spawned my
speaking-up.

> The skill level he displayed, left much to be desired?

Probably. Except only if you remove the comma.


Bear in mind that if the way you were acting was all in my "with
trepidation" category, I would likely have not spoken up. I believe
you crossed a lot further beyond that line.


>>> inconsiderate (behave annoyingly in multiple ways and despite poeple pointing
>>> it out multiple times, mostly continue in the same manner, without taking
>>> their remarks into account) and
>> I do not tend to consider "inconsiderate" inappropriate if said in
>> earnest, as it is defensive. I'd still rather you talked about actions
>> as inconsiderate rather than people, but baby steps.
>
> I don't understand this, since (in)consideration is in general seen as
> a character trait. On that basis I think you have it exactly backwards
> when you consider "incompetent" an attack of character yet seem to
> have little problem with "inconsiderate".

"You are inconsiderate" is describing someone's character. Hence I
believe it would be better to say "what you did was inconsiderate".
What I was saying, though, is that because "inconsiderate" is
defensive and reactionary it is not an insult*. It refers to the fact
that you believe the person you say it to should respect other people
and what he is doing negatively impacts them.

Another example would be: "you are awesome". Despite being a
description of character, I'm not too idiotic to realise that it is
not a mean thing to say. (Even here, "what you did is awesome" is a
*milder* way of saying the same idea.) It's easy to misread what I've
said, but I was never trying to imply that my problem was solely in
this distinction -- it was just that it's important to realise that
the divide exists and very explanatory to some aspects of how people
take commentary.

Both rurpy and you seem to have mistaken me to believe that describing
character vs. describing actions is the be-all and end-all. Rather, I
just believe it is a large factor in the harshness of what you say.

*You seem to have moved back to the term "insult"; this seems
especially appropriate since we are discussing its meaning.

> Yet people who have a more
> inconsiderate character can't work on acquiring consideration, as one
> can on acquiring skill/competence. Sure one can work on it, but it is
> something you have to keep watchful for. Otherwise you can easily slip
> again into a pattern of being/behaving inconsiderate.

Firstly, I disagree. Consideration is a learnt trait as most human
interaction is.

Secondly, I don't understand why you are bringing this up.

>>> jerk (trying to spin your inconsiderate behaviour as you being the victim,
>>> misrepresenting your behaviour when it is being discussed, always "explaining"
>>> your behaviour, as if an explanation would make a difference to the annoyance
>>> you caused to others...)
>> You came close.
>
> Same question as two entries above.

I shall leave this open to see if you think my answer above applies here.

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#49842

Op 04-07-13 01:40, Joshua Landau schreef:

> On 3 July 2013 11:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>
>> This is not an attack of character. Level of skill/competence is
>> not in general seen as a character trait.
> I disagree. I'm not sure how to argue this, rather than point out that
> by "character trait" I'm not talking about "intrinsic trait" but
> rather "revolving around who you are". The alternative I posed is
> talking about things revolving around specific actions that you have
> taken.

All right I can work with that. However I get the impression what you
are talking about is then not limited to character traits but can be
applied to other traits too. It is unlikely to come up in this group
but I guess you would be opposed in a similar way to someone being
called a weakling after it became clear he was not physically fit for
a particular task.


>> But how do I describe this in one word? What conclusion am I allowed
>> to make from all this?
> That it's worth taking a little more time doing things if it makes
> sure you aren't harming the person on the other end.

I agree to a certain extend. But sometimes I seem to come up (not only
on usenet but in real life too) to people who seem to be oblivious to
the message you are sending until you cast it into words that sting.

I have been guily of such behaviour myself, not really reacting to the
warnings from my partner until they were termed in a way that was hard
to ignore.

And sure, there is a serious risk of a hostile reaction, but getting
a hostile reaction doesn't contradict that it was effective. People
often do change their behaviour even if there first reaction was hostile
and denial.

So I'll agree to doing as little harm as possible and that there is
a level of harm that shouldn't be crossed. But I won't go as far as
making sure no harm is done.


>
>> [examples]
> Bear in mind that if the way you were acting was all in my "with
> trepidation" category, I would likely have not spoken up. I believe
> you crossed a lot further beyond that line.

I had to look up "trepidation" and the translation I got from my
dictionary was not 100% helpful. Would "hesitation" or "wariness"
be a good substitute.

Can we go back to my first entry in this thread? I would like to
know whether you think that already crossed the line or if that
would fall under your "with trepidation" category and I crossed
the line later.

I think the relevant part is this:

] Maybe that way he'll learn that if he doesn't want to be considered
] an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't behave like one.

-- 
Antoon Pardon 

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#49920

On 4 July 2013 12:19, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
> Op 04-07-13 01:40, Joshua Landau schreef:
>
>> Bear in mind that if the way you were acting was all in my "with
>> trepidation" category, I would likely have not spoken up. I believe
>> you crossed a lot further beyond that line.
>
> I had to look up "trepidation" and the translation I got from my
> dictionary was not 100% helpful. Would "hesitation" or "wariness"
> be a good substitute.

Yes; it's along the lines of "hesitation /due/ to wariness".

> Can we go back to my first entry in this thread? I would like to
> know whether you think that already crossed the line or if that
> would fall under your "with trepidation" category and I crossed
> the line later.
>
> I think the relevant part is this:
>
> ] Maybe that way he'll learn that if he doesn't want to be considered
> ] an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't behave like one.

If my records are accurate*, by the time I responded (excluding that
to Mark Lawrence), you had also said:

> Should we particularly care about Nikos's feelings?

> May that way he'll learn that if he doesn't
> want to be considered an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't
> behave like one.

> You'll notice I don't judge all newbies as
> incompetent jerks. Just you

> I am judging you for
> behaving liken an asshole and trying to deny it.

> you were behaving like an asshole

> You poor thing.
(Obvious hostile sarcasm in context)

And quite a few repeats of the same things.

* I thought I stepped in earlier, but I'm not going to argue with
GMail's history.


This quote:

> Maybe that way he'll learn that if he doesn't want to be considered
> an incompetent inconsiderate jerk, he shouldn't behave like one.

in solidarity -- although calling someone "incompetent" and,
especially, a "jerk" is unwanted -- would probably not have made me
respond. However, it is definitely past the "with trepidation"
category.

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#49680

Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> writes:

> Firstly, describing someone's behaviour and describing someone's
> character are two completely different things.

I agree with that.

> Antoon is describing people's character.

I disagree with that. To merely describe someone as “incompetent” is not
to describe their behaviour: they are not competent to do what they are
attempting, which is not a judgement on their character. Just as to
merely describe someone as “ignorant” is to describe their lack of
knowledge in some area, and is not a judgement on their character.

Even character judgements can be appropriate, so long as they are
salient to the acceptable behaviours in this forum; there are many
character attributes that are incompatible with this community.

So since both accurate description of actions and character judgement
can be appropriate for discussing acceptable behaviour here, I'll thank
you not to make absolute prohibitions against either.

> You are talking about describing their actions.

Yes.

Since you seem to be imputing character judgements to descriptions which
are accurate descriptions of behaviour, I think we've found the root of
the disagreement. I've made my position clear and will let it rest there.

> Calling someone incompetent is an attack

It can be part of an attack, but in itself is merely a description of
someone's behaviour.

> If you cannot see the difference, I'm not sure what more I can say.

Likewise. Thanks for caring enough about this community to act in the
interest of keeping it open, considerate, and respectful.

-- 
 \     “Beware of and eschew pompous prolixity.” —Charles A. Beardsley |
  `\                                                                   |
_o__)                                                                  |
Ben Finney

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#49683

On 3 July 2013 01:36, Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> wrote:
> I think we've found the root of
> the disagreement. I've made my position clear and will let it rest there.

Seconded.

> Thanks for caring enough about this community to act in the
> interest of keeping it open, considerate, and respectful.

Thank you in turn.

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#49717

Op 02-07-13 15:40, Joshua Landau schreef:
> On 2 July 2013 13:01, Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> wrote:
>> Op 02-07-13 11:34, Joshua Landau schreef:
>>
>>> No it does not. I'd give you more of a counter but I actually have no
>>> idea how you came up with that.
>> Please answer the following question. If someone behaved incompetently,
>> how can I clearly state that fact when "incompetently" is seen as an
>> insult and insults don't belong on the list?
> There is not ever a place on this list where you will need to call
> someone incompetent. You can explain to someone that they do not
> understand what they are doing, but when you attack the character of
> the person it is no longer acceptable.
This is not an attack of character. Level of skill/competence is
not in general seen as a character trait. It is something one can
generally increase if one is willing to work on it, and once
you acquired it, you don't have to keep your guard for situations
in which you might loose it.

 

>>>> But for your ease of mind I'll make it clear I have no intention
>>>> of haunting Nikos or of keeping him the subject of discussion.
>>>> But should I stumble on a conversation in which his past behaviour
>>>> is framed as him being innocentltly asking questions, I will point
>>>> of what bullshit that is.
>>> Fair enough. If that's all you did in this thread, then I wouldn't care.
>>>
>>> But once again you seem to have missed the point that I and others
>>> keep reiterating: pseudo-insults have no place on this list.
>>>
>>>
>>> (If you need a reminder, pseudo-insults are just what other people
>>> term "insults". You can change the name if you see fit.)
>> So what are the non-insulting terms for
>>
>> incompentent, (starting a webservice in a language you're a newby in,
>> making changes on the life server so that any typo you make, can take
>> your site out the air),
> You just did it.

But how do I describe this in one word? What conclusion am I allowed
to make from all this?

Can I say: He displayed a pattern of incompetence? He has been blundering
about? His skill level was unimpressive? The skill level he displayed,
left much to be desired?
 

>> inconsiderate (behave annoyingly in multiple ways and despite poeple pointing
>> it out multiple times, mostly continue in the same manner, without taking
>> their remarks into account) and
> I do not tend to consider "inconsiderate" inappropriate if said in
> earnest, as it is defensive. I'd still rather you talked about actions
> as inconsiderate rather than people, but baby steps.

I don't understand this, since (in)consideration is in general seen as
a character trait. On that basis I think you have it exactly backwards
when you consider "incompetent" an attack of character yet seem to
have little problem with "inconsiderate". Yet people who have a more
inconsiderate character can't work on acquiring consideration, as one
can on acquiring skill/competence. Sure one can work on it, but it is
something you have to keep watchful for. Otherwise you can easily slip
again into a pattern of being/behaving inconsiderate. 


>> jerk (trying to spin your inconsiderate behaviour as you being the victim,
>> misrepresenting your behaviour when it is being discussed, always "explaining"
>> your behaviour, as if an explanation would make a difference to the annoyance
>> you caused to others...)
> You came close.

Same question as two entries above.

>
>
> But, since Nikos has thankfully ceased, I'm saying here that unless
> you have good reasons otherwise I'd rather only continue this
> off-list. If you reply on-list without justification I will likely not
> reply.
>
Since others have in the mean time responded in this thread, I didn't think
it a good idea, to have this part in private.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#49570

Στις 1/7/2013 6:34 μμ, ο/η Steven D'Aprano έγραψε:

>> And no, i do not want to piss off people like you, who have spend time
>> helping me.
>
> Too late. I asked you to stop flaming on-list, and you didn't. I am now
> kill-filing you for a month. Feel grateful that it is not permanent, and
> take this time to reflect that you are running out of people willing to
> help you.

First i saw his post and replied as i did and then i saw your reply.

-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49573

Στις 1/7/2013 6:34 μμ, ο/η Steven D'Aprano έγραψε:
>>> The above of course assumes that I have not kill-filed you for
>>> continuing to be abusive on-list.
>> So, Steven you want me to sit tight and read all the insults coming from
>> this guy?
>>
>> If that happened to you, wouldn't you feel the need and urge to reply
>> back and stand for yourself?
> "Stand up for yourself" and "be abusive" are two different things. I told
> you, I don't care what you do off-list, but if you continue flaming on-
> list, I will kill-file you.

I was name called directly, as "incompetent jerk", thats a 
straightforward insult, so i responded back to him in the same manner.

I'm not saying it was a nice thing to do, but i just had enough.


-- 
What is now proved was at first only imagined!

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#49517

On 30 June 2013 20:58, Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 2013-06-30 18:24, Νίκος wrote:
>>
>> Στις 29/6/2013 8:00 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>
>>> Why this when the approach to Nick the Incompetant Greek has been to
>>> roll out the red carpet?
>>
>>
>> Your mother is incompetent who raised a brat like you.
>
>
> That is not acceptable behavior on this list. Please keep the gratuitous
> insults offlist.

As much as you are right, this argument was started by Mark. If you
reprimand anyone (other threads being ignored) it should be him.
Reacting only to Nick, even though what Nick said was undue, implies
that you agree with Mark's actions.

Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether they
are justified or not.

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#49518

On 2013-06-30 22:57, Joshua Landau wrote:
> On 30 June 2013 20:58, Robert Kern <robert.kern@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On 2013-06-30 18:24, Νίκος wrote:
>>>
>>> Στις 29/6/2013 8:00 μμ, ο/η Mark Lawrence έγραψε:
>>>
>>>> Why this when the approach to Nick the Incompetant Greek has been to
>>>> roll out the red carpet?
>>>
>>>
>>> Your mother is incompetent who raised a brat like you.
>>
>>
>> That is not acceptable behavior on this list. Please keep the gratuitous
>> insults offlist.
>
> As much as you are right, this argument was started by Mark. If you
> reprimand anyone (other threads being ignored) it should be him.
> Reacting only to Nick, even though what Nick said was undue, implies
> that you agree with Mark's actions.
>
> Remember that Nick is as much a human as all of us, he is bound to
> have his feelings hurt when so many people pick on him -- whether they
> are justified or not.

I hereby reprimand both Mark and Nikos.

-- 
Robert Kern

"I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma
  that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had
  an underlying truth."
   -- Umberto Eco

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