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Re: Python Worst Practices

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  Re: Python Worst Practices Michiel Overtoom <motoom@xs4all.nl> - 2015-02-25 21:58 +0100
    Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-02-28 10:28 +0000
      Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-02-28 12:56 +0200
        Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-02-28 06:26 -0800
        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-02-28 15:43 +0000
        Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-01 19:11 +1100
          Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 01:07 -0800
          Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0200
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:32 +1100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 18:58 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 10:42 -0700
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 21:21 +0200
                  OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 09:43 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:38 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:01 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 17:34 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 19:52 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 18:16 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 19:32 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-01 11:23 -0800
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:59 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-02 10:40 +1300
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2015-03-01 16:47 -0500
                          Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 22:10 +0000
                          An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices) Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:03 +1100
                          Re: An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-02 11:07 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 20:02 +0000
                Re: Python Worst Practices Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 20:14 -0800
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 06:40 +0200
                  Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 08:59 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 14:19 +0200
                      (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 01:39 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-02 17:30 +0200
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:51 +0100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 19:51 -0800
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2015-03-03 15:10 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 05:32 +0100
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 03:00 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-03 11:40 +0000
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-03 21:43 -0800
                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 15:16 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 14:41 +0100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 18:55 +0200
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 06:45 -0800
                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 06:14 +1100
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2015-03-04 11:28 -0800
                                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-04 21:33 +0200
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-05 07:11 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 07:40 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Emile van Sebille <emile@fenx.com> - 2015-03-04 14:39 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:36 +1100
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-05 20:39 -0500
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-04 20:10 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-04 19:38 -0800
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 07:19 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-05 10:16 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 15:39 +0200
                                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-06 00:00 -0800
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-06 08:31 +0000
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:06 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-06 12:34 +0000
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 12:03 +0200
                                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] llanitedave <llanitedave@birdandflower.com> - 2015-03-06 08:23 -0800
                                                      Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-06 20:15 +0200
                                                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Christian Gollwitzer <auriocus@gmx.de> - 2015-03-06 20:26 +0100
                                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-06 14:34 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-05 20:28 +0000
                                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steve Hayes <hayesstw@telkomsa.net> - 2015-03-05 21:45 +0200
                                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-05 22:10 +0200
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 02:45 +1100
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 18:40 +1300
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 17:56 +1100
                              Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 09:05 +0200
                                Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 18:14 +1100
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 18:38 +1100
                                    Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-03 00:12 -0800
                                  Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python   Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 23:35 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 23:35 -0800
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 10:54 -0500
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 11:45 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 00:23 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 12:00 +1100
                            Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism,   language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2015-03-03 19:06 +1300
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 01:44 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2015-03-03 02:09 +0000
                          Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 16:18 +1100
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2015-03-03 09:17 +0000
                        Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2015-03-03 15:40 +0100
                      Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 15:32 +0000
                        Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 15:45 +0000
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Manolo Martínez <manolo@austrohungaro.com> - 2015-03-02 13:00 +0100
                Uncanny valley of languages Jonas Wielicki <jonas@wielicki.name> - 2015-03-02 11:54 +0100
                  Re: Uncanny valley of languages Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 18:33 -0800
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 03:42 +1100
            Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-01 16:52 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 20:16 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 07:26 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-01 21:07 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-01 22:45 +0200
                Re: Python Worst Practices Mario Figueiredo <marfig@gmail.com> - 2015-03-01 22:01 +0100
              Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-01 20:53 -0500
                (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-02 13:35 +1100
                  Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2015-03-01 19:18 -0800
                    Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 14:42 +1100
                Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 17:12 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-03-02 11:06 -0800
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-02 22:21 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-03-02 23:04 -0500
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-03-03 06:32 +0200
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:15 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-03-03 15:49 +1100
                    Re: Python Worst Practices Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 11:31 +0000
                  Re: Python Worst Practices Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-03-03 07:20 +0000
              Re: Python Worst Practices Travis Griggs <travisgriggs@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 08:25 -0800
                Re: Python Worst Practices alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2015-03-02 17:02 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-03-01 22:14 +0000
            Re: Python Worst Practices Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-03-02 06:45 +1100

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#86797 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:

> Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
> new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
> fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a
> code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
> variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
> sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
> housework. 

I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
milk with higher fat content.

In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one"
--, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference:

The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I
say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break,
it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else.

What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
"this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
in meaning here. 

Sturla

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#86798 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Sturla Molden wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> 
>> Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
>> new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
>> fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about
>> "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
>> variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
>> sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
>> housework.
> 
> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
> milk with higher fat content.

A good example of the complexity and subtlety of English grammar. I don't
know enough linguistics to tell you what "a milk" in that sense is called,
but it's not the same as "1 milk", "2 milks" etc. I'm not even sure what
the purpose of the "a" is, since it reads fine without it.

I chalk that up to "English is weird", like the way we sometimes refer to
money as a mass noun ("two buckets of money", not "two monies") and other
times we treat it as a mass plural noun ("please hand all monies to the
bursar", but it would be weird to say "please hand five monies to the
bursar").

Oh, and of course since language is complicated and speakers of language are
lazy, there are contexts where one does say "two milks" as a short-hand,
like we say "two sugars" when we mean "two spoonfuls of sugar" or "serves
of sugar". The unit of measure is implied by context.


> In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word
> "one" --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference:
> 
> The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I
> say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could
> break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else.

No. It means that there is one secret code that Turing, and only Turing,
could break, and some unknown number (possibly zero, possibly millions) of
codes that he could not break. Whether other people could break these other
codes is not stated. Whether you say "a code" or "one code" (or "fifteen
codes" for that matter) is irrelevant.

There is a weak implication that if Turing cannot break the other codes,
nobody else could either. That's not necessarily true in real life, but as
a rough rule of thumb, we can reason like this: since there is one code
that Turing can break but others cannot, he must be cleverer at breaking
secret codes than everyone else. If he is cleverer at breaking codes, then
it is unlikely that they could break codes that he cannot. If they could
break an Enigma code, so could he. Therefore, if he cannot break them,
neither can anyone else.


> What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
> "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
> in meaning here.


In British/American/Australian English, you wouldn't say either of those.
You would say "a long piece of Fortran code" or "a long example of Fortran
code". Or more likely, "a long Fortran program". Program is counted: there
is no difficulty in B/A/A English to say "I have written 17 programs".

We can substitute "one" for "a" and the meaning remains the same:

"Here is a long example of Fortran code."

"Here is one long example of Fortran code."


In neither case does it imply that there is only one example of Fortran code
which is long in the entire world.

(This is bringing back memories of when I was, oh, four or so, when I got
into a long argument with my teacher that "a hundred" and "one hundred"
were different. You counted "ninety-nine, *a* hundred, a hundred and one, a
hundred and two, ... a hundred and ninety-nine, *one* hundred, one hundred
and one...")



-- 
Steven

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#86817 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> "please hand all monies to the bursar", 

I think that's another case of an implied unit, the unit
in this case being the money involved in one transaction.

> but it would be weird to say "please hand five monies to the
> bursar".

It would, but I'm not sure I could explain exactly why. :-)

>>In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word
>>"one" --, it is the indefinite article.

It still means one of something, though. If there's a
difference, it's that it's somewhat more vague. "There's
a fly in my soup!" is expressing surprise that there are
more than zero flies present. You are referring to the
first one you happen to see; there might be others, but
they're not relevant. Whereas "There is one fly in my
soup!" is being precise about the number of flies.

-- 
Greg

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#86816 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Sturla Molden wrote:
> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
> milk with higher fat content.

There, "a milk" is really an abbreviation for "a type of milk".

But people who talk about "a code" don't mean "a type of code",
they're using it the way we would say "a program" or "a library".

> What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
> "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
> in meaning here.

There is, but the number of codes/pieces of code being referenced
still equals 1. The difference is more that "this file contains
a long Fortran code" suggests the file may contain other things
as well, whereas "this file contains one long Fortran code"
suggests that's the only thing it contains.

Isn't English wonderful?

-- 
Greg

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#86801 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>
>> Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
>> new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
>> fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a
>> code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
>> variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
>> sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
>> housework.
>
> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
> milk with higher fat content.

Yersey?

>
> In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one"
> --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference:
>
> The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I
> say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break,
> it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else.

No, it wasn't "a code" because not all the Enigma codes were broken.

>
> What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
> "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
> in meaning here.
>

You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the 
same thing, there is so subtle difference at all.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86802 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

On 2015-03-03 01:44, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote:
>> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>>
>>> Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
>>> new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
>>> fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a
>>> code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
>>> variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
>>> sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
>>> housework.
>>
>> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
>> milk with higher fat content.
>
> Yersey?
>
>>
>> In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one"
>> --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference:
>>
>> The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I
>> say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break,
>> it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else.
>
> No, it wasn't "a code" because not all the Enigma codes were broken.
>
>>
>> What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
>> "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
>> in meaning here.
>>
>
> You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the
> same thing, there is so subtle difference at all.
>
There might be a difference, like that between "this program contains a
bug" and "this program contains one bug".

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#86812 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

MRAB wrote:

> There might be a difference, like that between "this program contains a
> bug" and "this program contains one bug".


Those two sentences mean exactly the same thing in standard American, 
British and Australian English. Pedants can argue whether "one bug" means 
*exactly* one bug, not more, or *at least* one bug, but they can make 
precisely the same arguments about "a bug".



-- 
Steve

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#86833 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

>> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
>> milk with higher fat content.
> 
> Yersey?

Eh, Jersey.

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#86845 — Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]

Op 02-03-15 om 15:39 schreef Steven D'Aprano:
> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:
>>
>>> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in
>>> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange
>>> variation he uses?
>> If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted
>> on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious.
>>
>> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council
>> complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language
>> there is Swedish.
> I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who
> apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in
> parliament in his native Welsh.
>
>
>>> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one
>>> you are getting from we English (& Brits)
>> I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a
>> mile (say, Finnish -----> American English) and you are up in arms about
>> having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English).
> "Not one inch!"
>
> Sometimes the small differences are more important than the big. Your
> Finnishness is not threatened by learning English, any more than Mark's
> Britishness would be threatened by him learning Russian.
>
> [Now there's a thought... with the historical relationships between Finland
> and Russia, I wonder whether Finns would be as blasé about using a foreign
> language if it were Russian rather than English? But I digress.]
>
> Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American
> English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody
> is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even
> if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American
> English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all.

Nonsense. Why should it be impossible for a Finish person speaking fluent
American English do be mistaken for an American. 

This is mostly about personal attitude --- which can be culturally enforced.
I regularly meet people from the Netherlands who came to live in Northern Belgium.
Some have an attitude like you describe above and others don't and don't mind
adapting their language without feeling any less a Dutchman.

Then we have people whose native tongue is French, who seem to think they will
somehow lose their French speaking identity by learning Dutch.

> Personally, I think that monocultures are harmful and ought to be resisted,
> whether than monoculture is one-species-of-wheat, one-operating-system, or
> one-language. The English-speaking world is threatened by American cultural
> and linguistic monoculture[1], and that's a bad thing. The same applies to
> the rest of the world, but to a much lesser extent. Having a rich and
> varied cultural ecosystem is important, and regional differences in
> language and culture are an essential part in that.

People adapting their language in order to be better understood by their audience
doesn't make a mono culture. This is just one newsgroup/mailing list. Talking
about mono culture because of adapting to one specific variant of a particular
language here makes no more sense than talking about mono culture because the
subject here is python and not other computer languages.

-- 
Antoon Pardon

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#86749

On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:19:45 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:
> 
>> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in
>> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange
>> variation he uses?
> 
> If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted
> on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious.
> 
> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council
> complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language
> there is Swedish.
> 
>> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you
>> are getting from we English (& Brits)
> 
> I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a
> mile (say, Finnish -----> American English) and you are up in arms about
> having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English).
> 
> 
> Marko

Because the language is English not American.
the Standard for English is by very definition UK English
English is spoken badly enough as it is without deliberately speaking it 
worse!


As I said earlier tell a Spaniard they need to learn Latin Spanish 
because traditional Spanish is not standard & see how far you get.
if they are laid back about it try the same thing with he French


-- 
Detroit is Cleveland without the glitter.

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#86752

On 02/03/2015 15:32, alister wrote:
> On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:19:45 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>
>> alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:
>>
>>> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in
>>> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange
>>> variation he uses?
>>
>> If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted
>> on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious.
>>
>> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council
>> complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language
>> there is Swedish.
>>
>>> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you
>>> are getting from we English (& Brits)
>>
>> I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a
>> mile (say, Finnish -----> American English) and you are up in arms about
>> having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English).
>>
>>
>> Marko
>
> Because the language is English not American.
> the Standard for English is by very definition UK English
> English is spoken badly enough as it is without deliberately speaking it
> worse!
>
>
> As I said earlier tell a Spaniard they need to learn Latin Spanish
> because traditional Spanish is not standard & see how far you get.
> if they are laid back about it try the same thing with he French
>
>

This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canarian_Spanish is interesting.

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86731

On 03/02/15 at 08:59am, alister wrote:
 
> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in 
> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange 
> variation he uses?
> 
> I suspect the  reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you 
> are getting from we English (& Brits)
> 
In fact, you would find that most Spaniards, in an international
Spanish-speaking context, will tune down their dialectal idiosyncracies
and aim for a 'neutral Spanish' of sorts.

Manolo

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#86714 — Uncanny valley of languages

[Multipart message — attachments visible in raw view] — view raw

On 01.03.2015 18:34, Mark Lawrence wrote:
> On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>> Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk>:
>>
>>> Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you
>>> are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the
>>> way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the
>>> Commonwealth.  Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two
>>> chances, zero or none.
>>
>> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me).
>>
>> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both
>> of us could stick to American English.
>>
>>
>> Marko
>>
> 
> Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh?  Colour, harbour,
> tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the
> habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site.
> 

I wonder whether this discussion has anything to do with the Uncanny
Valley [1]. Anyone who is not native to some dialect of English just has
to learn that language it if they want to be taken serious in the SE
world. That’s kind of a law. On the other hand, there are some British
refuse to learn a few minor adaptions to their native tongue, while
others have to trade their native tongue completely.

This leads me to believe that due to the fact that there are so many
similarities between en_US and en_GB (they are even closer than C and
C++, which are already taken as being the same language with dialects by
some), it feels as if en_US was dictating them how to live their own
language, while in fact, they are distinct and noone tries to dictate
anything about en_GB.

That said, I also prefer the British spelling. But that is just, like,
my opinion, man.

regards,
jwi


   [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley

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#86804 — Re: Uncanny valley of languages

On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 4:25:04 PM UTC+5:30, Jonas Wielicki wrote:
> I wonder whether this discussion has anything to do with the Uncanny
> Valley [1].
<snipped>
>    [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uncanny_valley


That's right.

And thanks for the reference.
Had seen that some time but forgot the name and what/how to search for it

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#86660

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:38 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
> Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you are,
> you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the way is a
> British expression that may or may not be used around the Commonwealth.
> Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two chances, zero or
> none.

It's not one that we use out here in the Antipodes... probably a
British peculiarity. Or perhaps an English peculiarity, but I would
guess more likely British.

ChrisA

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#86661

On 01/03/2015 16:42, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:38 AM, Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:
>> Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"?  If you are,
>> you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled.  That by the way is a
>> British expression that may or may not be used around the Commonwealth.
>> Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two chances, zero or
>> none.
>
> It's not one that we use out here in the Antipodes... probably a
> British peculiarity. Or perhaps an English peculiarity, but I would
> guess more likely British.
>
> ChrisA
>

British.  Never call me English, my mum was Welsh and would come back 
from the grave to haunt you :)

-- 
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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#86676

On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 18:16:05 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:

> Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>:
> 
>> Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>> Learn it like everybody else has to.
>>
>> Stockholm Syndrome :-)
>>
>> "I learned English, and so everyone else should too."
> 
> No, the point is that if everybody else has taken the trouble of
> learning American English, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the
> British to make an effort as well.
>

The language is called English, the clue is in the name. interestingly 
most 'Brits' can switch between American English & English without too 
much trouble (I still have a problem with Chips) 

> 
> You can watch TV programmes at home, but in the office, you should be
> writing Python programs.
> 
> (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is
> when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international
> contexts.)
The bigger problem is that the USian does not know there even is an 
international context.
I know that us British/English are poor at learning other languages but 
we do at least acknowledge that we should do better.

Last time I was is the USA I had a local ask me which state London was 
in! (heck I know they only bother with their own history but I though we 
played quite an important role in that)

> 
> 
> Marko





-- 
You know it's going to be a long day when you get up, shave and shower,
start to get dressed and your shoes are still warm.
		-- Dean Webber

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#86677

On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:16 AM, alister
<alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> Last time I was is the USA I had a local ask me which state London was
> in! (heck I know they only bother with their own history but I though we
> played quite an important role in that)

See, that wasn't a geographic question, it was one of security alert
level. He wanted to know if London was presently in a state of alarm.

ChrisA

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#86681

On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 07:26:22 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote:

> On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:16 AM, alister
> <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>> Last time I was is the USA I had a local ask me which state London was
>> in! (heck I know they only bother with their own history but I though
>> we played quite an important role in that)
> 
> See, that wasn't a geographic question, it was one of security alert
> level. He wanted to know if London was presently in a state of alarm.
> 
> ChrisA

unfortunately no, she didn't and was completely clueless. if fact she 
made the stereotypical air head in slasher movies look like a genius.




-- 
Some scholars are like donkeys, they merely carry a lot of books.
		-- Folk saying

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#86679

alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com>:

> The language is called English, the clue is in the name.

I don't care what you call it as long as you use the Hollywoodese accent
and spelling.

> interestingly most 'Brits' can switch between American English &
> English without too much trouble

I wish they actually did.

Not to pick on the British. All native English-speakers seem to suffer
from the same problem.(*)

Fact remains I can easily understand what Chinese, Mexican, Italian,
Russian or Malay colleagues say in English. For some reason, Australian
and Indian speakers don't give me trouble, either. The Irish accent is
borderline, but the British, sad to say, are hopeless.


Marko

(*) Why, I speak Finnish in the local dialect; however, I *don't* try my
vernacular on any foreigner. The other day, a Russian colleague bravely
initiated a dialogue in Finnish. I was careful to speak slowly using the
standard dialect.

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