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Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard?

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  Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? dufriz@gmail.com - 2013-10-23 04:57 -0700
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 23:16 +1100
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-23 12:36 +0000
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-10-23 19:46 -0400
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-10-23 19:54 -0400
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 13:35 +0100
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? "Colin J. Williams" <cjw@ncf.ca> - 2013-10-23 09:05 -0400
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2013-10-23 14:13 +0100
          Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? "Colin J. Williams" <cjw@ncf.ca> - 2013-10-24 20:03 -0400
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 14:27 +0100
          Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-10-23 15:04 +0000
          Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-24 00:17 +0000
            Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-24 09:26 +0100
            Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 19:31 +1100
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-10-23 08:52 -0500
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2013-10-23 15:01 +0100
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 15:16 +0100
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 15:21 +0100
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-10-23 09:34 -0500
        Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Tim Golden <mail@timgolden.me.uk> - 2013-10-23 15:43 +0100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 23:40 +1100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-23 13:52 +0100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-10-23 08:57 -0400
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Kevin Walzer <kw@codebykevin.com> - 2013-10-23 11:03 -0400
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Dan Stromberg <drsalists@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 13:15 -0700
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-24 00:18 +0000
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-24 09:18 +0100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 21:57 -0700
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 17:46 +1100
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-10-23 23:32 -0700
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-24 09:29 +0100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2013-10-23 22:12 -0700
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-10-24 06:45 +0000
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 00:01 -0700
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 18:09 +1100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-10-24 08:30 +0000
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 19:37 +1100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-24 09:43 +0100
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Alister <alister.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2013-10-24 10:30 +0000
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-10-24 09:45 +0100
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Peter Cacioppi <peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> - 2013-10-24 01:52 -0700
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Damien Wyart <damien.wyart@free.fr> - 2013-10-24 15:29 +0200
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? ishish <ishish@domhain.de> - 2013-10-24 14:36 +0100
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-10-24 13:31 -0400
      Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-10-24 17:00 -0400
    Re: Will Python 3.x ever become the actual standard? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-10-24 20:17 -0400

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#57356

On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 11:16 PM, David <bouncingcats@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 23 October 2013 22:57,  <dufriz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even bothered learning version 3.x.
>
> OMG. Please provide their names. We'll send Doug & Dinsdale.

Who and who?

Re the subject line: As far as I'm concerned, it already is. Just use
it, now it's standard. That's what it takes... and that's all it
takes.

ChrisA

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#57357

On 23/10/2013 13:16, David wrote:
> On 23 October 2013 22:57,  <dufriz@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even bothered learning version 3.x.
>
> OMG. Please provide their names. We'll send Doug & Dinsdale.
>

Please ensure that they're accompanied by the chief constable carrying 
the tactical thermonuclear missile just in case of trouble as sometimes 
the combination of nailing heads to coffee tables and sarcasm just isn't 
enough.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#57358

In article <6e0bbc6b-9435-4a4b-8840-8a46cc4e0cc5@googlegroups.com>,
 dufriz@gmail.com wrote:

> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be actually 
> adopted by the Python community at large as their standard. Years have 
> passed, and a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even bothered 
> learning version 3.x. Why am I bothered by this? Because of lot of good 
> libraries are still only for version 2.x, and there is no sign of their being 
> updated for v3.x.

It's a chicken-and-egg thing.  People aren't moving because the 
libraries they depend on don't yet support P3, so there's not a lot of 
people using P3, so there's not a lot of pressure for libraries to 
support it, etc.

Here's our list of external Python dependencies (mostly installed with 
pip, a few of the harder to build ones we install as binaries with 
apt-get).  I'll annotate them with what P3 support is available.  I'm 
doing this quickly, so may not be 100% accurate (and I ran out of time, 
so I started just looking at the major ones):

argparse==1.2.1           # included in P3
beanstalkc==0.3.0         # no support
blinker==1.2              # P3 supported
boto==2.5.1               # no support
dateglob==0.1             # no support, probably not critical
decorator==3.3.3          # P3 supported
django==1.4.5             # P3 support in 1.6 (RC just released)
django-multi-sessions==0.1.0    # no support, probably not critical
django-timedeltafield==0.7.0    # no support, probably not critical
dnspython==1.11.0         # P3 supported
elasticsearch==0.4.2      # no support (unclear)
Fabric==1.7.0             # "eventual Python 3.x compatibility"
gevent==0.13.8            # no support
grequests==0.2.0          # no support
gunicorn==0.17.4          # P3 supported
jellyfish==0.2.0          # no support
Jinja2==2.7.1             # "upcoming" support for P3
leveldb==0.19             # no support
lxml==2.2.4               # P3 supported
markdown==2.3.1
MarkupSafe==0.18
mongoengine==0.7.10       # P3 support on the roadmap for 0.9 release
mrjob==0.4
msgpack-python==0.3.0
nose==1.3.0
numpy==1.6.1     # "some [...] packages still only work on Python 2"
pandas==0.9.1
paramiko==1.11.0
Paste==1.7.2
PIL==1.1.7
prettytable==0.7
psycopg2==2.5
pyasn1==0.1.7
pymongo==2.5.2           # P3 supported
pyparsing==1.5.2
pysnmp==4.2.3
python-cjson==1.0.5
python-dateutil==1.4.1
python-memcached==1.53
pytz==2010b
pyzmq==13.1.0
requests==1.2.0           # P3 supported
rpclib==2.7.0-beta
scipy==0.9.0
setproctitle==1.1.6
statsd==2.0.3
suds==0.4
tornado==3.1
ujson==1.23
Unidecode==0.04.5
unittest2==0.5.1

> I get the impression as if 3.x, despite being better and 
> more advanced than 2.x from the technical point of view, is a bit of a 
> letdown in terms of adoption.

I would agree.  I think the handwriting is on the wall that we'll get 
there eventually, but it's taking a lot longer than I would have 
expected.

I think we're at the point where most major projects either already 
support P3, or at least have it on their roadmaps, and people learning 
Python in school are starting to be taught P3 instead of P2.  But I 
think we're not going to see P3 be the predominant version for several 
more years.

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#57370

On 10/23/13 7:57 AM, dufriz@gmail.com wrote:
> Years have passed, and a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even bothered learning version 3.x.

That's true for me. My own projects run just fine with 2.7.

I have no specific issue with 3.x, nor phobia of it, but my time as a 
developer is limited, and I'd rather use it to add features to my apps 
using the stable base of 2.7 rather than go through the headaches of 
modifying my codebase to accommodate the differences with 3.x.

This is something that's On My List to Do Someday, but right now there's 
no real upside to it for my apps. As long as 2.7 is supported, I'll 
probably continue to use it.

--Kevin

-- 
Kevin Walzer
Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin
http://www.codebykevin.com
http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com

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#57380

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On Wed, Oct 23, 2013 at 4:57 AM, <dufriz@gmail.com> wrote:

> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
> actually adopted by the Python community at large as their standard. Years
> have passed, and a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even bothered
> learning version 3.x. Why am I bothered by this? Because of lot of good
> libraries are still only for version 2.x, and there is no sign of their
> being updated for v3.x. I get the impression as if 3.x, despite being
> better and more advanced than 2.x from the technical point of view, is a
> bit of a letdown in terms of adoption.


When 3.x came out, the python-dev folks practically commanded us to wait a
while before diving in.  I think things are mostly going according to plan.

I think some little-used libraries will never get moved over.

We've been seeing that 2to3 and 3to2 aren't really the main way of moving
things to 3.x; instead, we're seeing a lot of code written to run,
unmodified on both 2.x and 3.x.  This was a bit of a surprise, I think.  A
document I wrote about how to do this is at
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~dstromberg/Intro-to-Python/

I find the differences between 2.x and 3.x rather small, actually.  If some
people keep chanting "never going to happen", it probably won't - for them.

Personally, I've been coding greenfield projects in 3.x only and liking it,
and I wrote one ~10,000 line project to run on both:
http://stromberg.dnsalias.org/~strombrg/backshift/

HTH

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#57395

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 04:57:25 -0700, dufriz wrote:

> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
> actually adopted by the Python community at large as their standard.

Of course it will. Python 2.7 is the last of the 2 series. It will be 
given extended support, but eventually -- probably another five years or 
so -- it will be no longer supported, just like Python 1.5 is no longer 
supported.


> Years have passed, and a LARGE number of Python programmers has not even
> bothered learning version 3.x.

It's not like the differences are hard to learn. Even a mediocre 
programmer can learn the differences in semantics and syntax in about 
five minutes -- if you remember "print is a function", you're about half-
way there. Differences to the standard library are more extensive, but 
still easy to learn.


> Why am I bothered by this? Because of lot
> of good libraries are still only for version 2.x, and there is no sign
> of their being updated for v3.x.

What do you call a "lot"? A million? Ten? 

> I get the impression as if 3.x, despite
> being better and more advanced than 2.x from the technical point of
> view, is a bit of a letdown in terms of adoption.

Don't panic, the plan was always that the migration from 2 to 3 would 
take about a decade. We're only half-way through it, and the migration is 
proceeding according to plan:

- the majority of packages on PyPI now support Python 3, so the
  "Wall of Shame" is now renamed the "Wall of Superpowers":

  https://python3wos.appspot.com/

- big, important projects like numpy, scipy, django, zope, docutils etc.
  now have either full Python 3 support, partial support, or are actively
  working on it

- As of June this year, 39 of the top 50 downloaded projects from PyPI 
  had Python 3 support:

  http://py3ksupport.appspot.com/

- It's not just CPython, other implementations like Nuitika, PyPy and
  Cython have partial or full support for Python 3.


So don't worry about it.


-- 
Steven

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#57430

On 24/10/2013 01:18, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
> - the majority of packages on PyPI now support Python 3, so the
>    "Wall of Shame" is now renamed the "Wall of Superpowers":
>
>    https://python3wos.appspot.com/
>

Thank you, thank you, thank you, it's been driving me nuts trying to 
remember what the flaming thing was called :)

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#57408

It's an interesting issue. Back compatibility was broken with 3.x, which is always a risky move. Even Bill F*ng Gates was reluctant to break back compatibility, and he basically ruled the world (for about 20 minutes or so, but still). 

Moreover, you get a lot of the good stuff with 2.7. Along with more library support. So the smart decision is to code your project 2.7, even though the best thing for Pythonistan would be for us all to voluntarily migrate to 3.x.

At least that's my read on it. Feel free to flame if I'm out of my depth here, it wouldn't be the first time.

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#57415

On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 3:57 PM, Peter Cacioppi
<peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> wrote:
> Moreover, you get a lot of the good stuff with 2.7. Along with more library support. So the smart decision is to code your project 2.7, even though the best thing for Pythonistan would be for us all to voluntarily migrate to 3.x.

I won't flame you, but I will disagree with you :)

You may get "a lot of" the good stuff with 2.7, but there are plenty
of things you won't get - and the gap will widen with every Python
release. As of 3.3, you're missing out on, among other things:

* PEP 393 strings - high performance and perfect Unicode handling
* 'yield from'
* Major improvements to 'import'
* High performance 'decimal'

When 3.4 comes out, add to the list:

* enumerations
* asyncio
* Argument Clinic (introspection)

When 3.5 comes out, your 2.7 program will additionally be unable to use:

* Who knows?
* But it'll be exciting.

If you insist on not moving to 3.x, I strongly recommend some future
imports - unicode_literals, division, print_function - to make your
2.7 program behave more like a 3.x one. That'll ease the pain of
transition, though you'll still probably run into problems with
unicode vs bytes in places where your code used to be oblivious...
which means your code will become guaranteed-correct when you move to
3.x, where the 2.7 version was merely accidentally-correct.

ChrisA

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#57427

On 10/23/2013 09:57 PM, Peter Cacioppi wrote:
>
> Moreover, you get a lot of the good stuff with 2.7.

And the "good stuff" in 2.7 makes it easier to take that last step to 3.x when the time comes to do so.

--
~Ethan~

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#57432

On 24/10/2013 05:57, Peter Cacioppi wrote:
>
> Moreover, you get a lot of the good stuff with 2.7.

Much of it backported from Python 3.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#57410

I said

"Even Bill F*ng Gates was reluctant to break back compatibility,"

Reluctant to do so with his own stuff. Obviously he "embraced and extended" other peoples work. Don't get me started, Gates is Bizarro Guido. Good work with vaccines though.

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#57416

On Wed, 23 Oct 2013 22:12:57 -0700, Peter Cacioppi wrote:

> I said
> 
> "Even Bill F*ng Gates was reluctant to break back compatibility,"

Don't be fooled though, Python is *extremely* reluctant to break 
backwards compatibility too. That's why Python has the "__future__" 
directive, and why some warts have ended up enshrined in the language.

For example, although string exceptions were recognised as a bad idea for 
many years, there was a long deprecation process to get rid of them. It 
took at least 11 years to remove them completely:

http://python-history.blogspot.com.au/2009/03/how-exceptions-came-to-be-classes.html

Nick Coglan describes some of the completing pressures on a language like 
Python:

http://www.boredomandlaziness.org/2011/04/musings-on-culture-of-python-dev.html


Because of the tension between users demanding Python change more 
quickly, and those demanding it changes more slowly, you can't satisfy 
everyone. You probably can't even satisfy anyone.


-- 
Steven

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#57420

Chris The Angel said :
"I won't flame you, but I will disagree with you :)"

good, that's why I'm here ;)


" but there are plenty of things you won't get - and the gap will widen with very Python release."

Yes I skimmed that laundry list before deciding. I still think I made the right decision. 

I'll port it someday. I'll own the iPhone 5s (or whatever the latest one is) someday. I'm not an early adopter kind of person.

I'd like to think my project (which looks like it is getting funding, hooray!) will advance the glory of Pythonistan simply by doing cool stuff with 2.7. I'll port it someday (unless it flops, which won't happen, because I won't let it). 

Good discussion though, thanks!

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#57423

On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 6:01 PM, Peter Cacioppi
<peter.cacioppi@gmail.com> wrote:
> I'd like to think my project (which looks like it is getting funding, hooray!) will advance the glory of Pythonistan simply by doing cool stuff with 2.7. I'll port it someday (unless it flops, which won't happen, because I won't let it).

Which is why I mentioned those helpful __future__ directives, so you
can code now and be better able to port in five years when you feel
that it's important enough to do so. It's a good system.

ChrisA

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#57433

> <dufriz <at> gmail.com> writes:
> 
> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
actually adopted by the Python community at
> large as their standard.

We're planning to start the switch on 25th December 2013, 14h UTC.
It should be finished at most 48 hours later. You should expect some 
intermittent problems during the first few hours, but at the end
all uses of Twisted will be replaced with Tornado and asyncio (and
camelCase methods will have ceased to be).

By the way, if you want to join us, one week later we'll also switch
the Internet to IPv6 (except Germany).

Regards

Antoine.

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#57436

On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
>> <dufriz <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
> actually adopted by the Python community at
>> large as their standard.
>
> We're planning to start the switch on 25th December 2013, 14h UTC.
> It should be finished at most 48 hours later. You should expect some
> intermittent problems during the first few hours, but at the end
> all uses of Twisted will be replaced with Tornado and asyncio (and
> camelCase methods will have ceased to be).
>
> By the way, if you want to join us, one week later we'll also switch
> the Internet to IPv6 (except Germany).

Excellent! It's about time. IPv4 depletion happened some time ago.

What's your schedule for the replacement of Windows XP (with either a
later Windows or with Linux, open to either option)?

ChrisA

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#57438

On 24/10/2013 09:30, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>> <dufriz <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>
>> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
> actually adopted by the Python community at
>> large as their standard.
>
> We're planning to start the switch on 25th December 2013, 14h UTC.
> It should be finished at most 48 hours later. You should expect some
> intermittent problems during the first few hours, but at the end
> all uses of Twisted will be replaced with Tornado and asyncio (and
> camelCase methods will have ceased to be).
>
> By the way, if you want to join us, one week later we'll also switch
> the Internet to IPv6 (except Germany).
>
> Regards
>
> Antoine.
>
>

You forgot to mention that the whole world is switching to driving on 
the left hand side of the road at the same time.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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#57443

On Thu, 24 Oct 2013 09:43:18 +0100, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> On 24/10/2013 09:30, Antoine Pitrou wrote:
>>> <dufriz <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
>> actually adopted by the Python community at
>>> large as their standard.
>>
>> We're planning to start the switch on 25th December 2013, 14h UTC. It
>> should be finished at most 48 hours later. You should expect some
>> intermittent problems during the first few hours, but at the end all
>> uses of Twisted will be replaced with Tornado and asyncio (and
>> camelCase methods will have ceased to be).
>>
>> By the way, if you want to join us, one week later we'll also switch
>> the Internet to IPv6 (except Germany).
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Antoine.
>>
>>
>>
> You forgot to mention that the whole world is switching to driving on
> the left hand side of the road at the same time.

that is not true, because of the scale of the problem Bicycles will be 
switching 1st with cars & lorries switching a week later.



-- 
Children aren't happy without something to ignore,
And that's what parents were created for.
		-- Ogden Nash

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#57439

On 24/10/2013 09:37, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 24, 2013 at 7:30 PM, Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> wrote:
>>> <dufriz <at> gmail.com> writes:
>>>
>>> I am starting to have doubts as to whether Python 3.x will ever be
>> actually adopted by the Python community at
>>> large as their standard.
>>
>> We're planning to start the switch on 25th December 2013, 14h UTC.
>> It should be finished at most 48 hours later. You should expect some
>> intermittent problems during the first few hours, but at the end
>> all uses of Twisted will be replaced with Tornado and asyncio (and
>> camelCase methods will have ceased to be).
>>
>> By the way, if you want to join us, one week later we'll also switch
>> the Internet to IPv6 (except Germany).
>
> Excellent! It's about time. IPv4 depletion happened some time ago.
>
> What's your schedule for the replacement of Windows XP (with either a
> later Windows or with Linux, open to either option)?
>
> ChrisA
>

Sorry, there's problems with all version of both Windows and Linux so 
we're reverting with immediate effect to VMS.

-- 
Python is the second best programming language in the world.
But the best has yet to be invented.  Christian Tismer

Mark Lawrence

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