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Groups > comp.lang.python > #69887

Re: threading

From Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com>
Subject Re: threading
Date 2014-04-08 17:17 +0000
References <7xzjjvbwge.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.9030.1396977487.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> wrote:
> Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> writes:
>> When should we use C++ or Fortran instead of Python? Ever?
> 
> When performance matters? 

Sometimes, but usually performance only matters in certain types of
calculations like matrix algebra or FFTs. But we always use specialized
libraries for that, such as Intel MKL, OpenBLAS, AMD ACML, or Apple's
Accelerate Framework.  "When performance matters" is not really a good
answer, because performance might not matter where we think or as much as
we think.

For examle if I were to write a Levenberg-Marquardt solver, I would e.g.
find that 95% of the time is spent solving the linearized least-squares
equations

   (J' J + lambda diag(J' J)) dx = J' error

using QR or SVD. If I used LAPACK method DGELS or DGELSS to solve these
equations with QR or SVD, I would find that my otherwise idential Fortran
and Python code would perform roughly the same. None of the performance
libraries I mentioned cares if I am calling them from Python or Fortran.
The differences in runtime would thus be in the 5 % spent outside the
performance libraries. And if i/o is more efficient in Python, which is
very likely, it might even be that the Python version runs faster. So the
question is, when does it matter for me? Now and then, perhaps, but very
rarely. For example it did matter when we wrote the cKDTree object for
SciPy. But it never matters when I use it. 

I will make the bold claim that 90 % of the use of C++ or Fortran code in
scientific computing stems from the misconception that "writing everything"
in a compiled language will be faster. I have done this mistake myself, and
lost valuable time. I have promised myself I will not do it again, and then
realized I have done the same mistake yet again. It is a very dangerous
misconception. Always prototype in Python first, then profile, then choose
between optimization or using a bigger computer. Starting out by writing C,
C++, Cython or Fortran is a trap. Yet many do, myself included, because we
errorneously trust ourselves to know when we should just use Python. But
the thing is, nobody does, we just think we do. 

Sturla

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Re: threading Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-04-07 13:05 +1000
  Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-06 23:48 -0400
    Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 13:56 +1000
      Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-07 08:26 -0400
        Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-07 22:34 +1000
          Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-07 09:22 -0400
            Re: threading Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-07 14:41 +0100
            Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-07 16:49 +0300
              Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 00:27 +1000
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-07 17:51 +0300
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 01:12 +1000
            Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 00:24 +1000
      Re: threading Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 18:09 -0700
        Re: threading "Neil D. Cerutti" <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2014-04-09 09:50 -0400
          Re: threading Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 08:51 -0700
            Re: threading MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2014-04-09 18:47 +0100
              Re: threading Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-10 11:35 +1200
                Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-09 19:53 -0400
                Re: threading Andrew Berg <robotsondrugs@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 19:02 -0500
                Re: threading Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-10 02:43 +0000
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 13:08 +1000
                Re: threading Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-10 09:23 +0100
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 19:11 +1000
            Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 04:00 +1000
            Re: threading Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-10 03:44 +0000
              Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 13:54 +1000
    Re: threading Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2014-04-07 15:22 +1000
    Re: threading Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-04-08 11:09 -0700
    Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 21:41 +0200
      Re: threading Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-04-08 20:30 +0000
        Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 00:32 +0200
          Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 19:17 -0700
  Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-07 08:10 +0300
    Re: threading Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-06 22:39 -0700
      Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-07 08:46 +0300
      Re: threading Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-04-07 19:47 -0400
        Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-08 08:19 +0300
          Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 10:47 +0000
            Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-08 15:10 +0300
              Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:37 +0000
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-08 20:17 +0300
            Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-08 09:19 -0400
              Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 15:44 +0000
                Re: threading Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 09:38 -0700
                Re: threading Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-09 14:42 +0100
          Re: threading "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-04-09 15:23 +0200
            Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-09 16:55 +0300
              Re: threading "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-04-09 16:46 +0200
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-09 20:31 +0300
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 03:52 +1000
                Re: threading Mark H Harris <harrismh777@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 08:29 -0500
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 19:20 +0000
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 23:47 +1000
            Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-09 10:44 -0400
          Re: threading "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-04-09 16:30 +0200
            Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-09 10:52 -0400
              Re: threading Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-04-10 11:19 +1200
            Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-09 19:48 +0300
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 00:44 +1000
          Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 15:29 +0000
          Re: threading Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-09 12:14 -0400
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 02:25 +1000
          Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 16:32 +0000
          Re: threading Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2014-04-09 19:44 -0400
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 11:05 +1000
          Re: threading "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-04-10 11:17 +0200
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 19:40 +1000
          Re: threading "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2014-04-10 13:10 +0200
            Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-10 14:43 +0300
              Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-10 08:56 -0400
              Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 15:24 +0000
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-10 19:20 +0300
              Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 01:32 +1000
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-10 19:25 +0300
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 03:08 +1000
                Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 11:14 -0700
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-10 22:44 +0300
                Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 13:21 -0700
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-10 23:44 +0300
                Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 22:15 -0700
                Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 23:50 -0700
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-11 18:36 +0300
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-12 01:53 +1000
                Re: threading Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-04-11 16:58 +0100
                Re: threading Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 11:54 -0700
                Re: threading Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-04-11 22:27 +0300
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 01:51 +0200
                Re: threading Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-04-11 05:35 +0000
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 09:26 +0000
                Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-11 08:36 -0400
                Re: threading Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2014-04-11 16:18 +0000
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-11 02:21 +0200
                Re: threading Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-04-10 20:23 -0400
          Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-10 21:19 +1000
      Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 02:06 +0000
        Re: threading alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-04-08 11:07 +0000
          Re: threading Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2014-04-08 09:13 -0400
            Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 23:23 +1000
              Re: threading alister <alister.nospam.ware@ntlworld.com> - 2014-04-08 14:15 +0000
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 16:06 +0000
            Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 15:40 +0000
              Re: threading Paul Rubin <no.email@nospam.invalid> - 2014-04-08 09:46 -0700
                Re: threading Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-04-09 02:46 +1000
                Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 17:17 +0000
          Re: threading Sturla Molden <sturla.molden@gmail.com> - 2014-04-08 15:19 +0000

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