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Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)

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Date Sun, 21 Jun 2015 12:32:23 +1000
Subject Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)
From Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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On Sun, Jun 21, 2015 at 11:59 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> Recent thread on python ideas
> https://mail.python.org/pipermail/python-ideas/2015-June/034177.html
>
> Since "python's immutable" ≠ "really immutable", we now need a "really immutable"

That's because it requires mutable memory to keep track of reference
counts. In a non-refcountinig Python, strings and integers can be
truly immutable; that thread is suggesting (among other options)
simply storing the refcounts in a separate table. Conceptually, a
string or integer IS immutable, but CPython currently needs to be able
to fiddle with some bookkeeping data about them, in order to pretend
it has plenty of memory. A Python implementation could theoretically
just abandon its strings whenever it's done with them, wasting gobs of
memory in the process, and having them in read-only memory. More
practically, a pure mark-and-sweep GC (such as MicroPython uses)
trades prompt disposal for simple management, and in doing so,
achieves (I think) the same total immutability.

You have to distinguish between Python (the language) and CPython (the
implementation) here. Python's notion of mutability has nothing to do
with thread safety. You could achieve perfect thread safety for
immutables by simply replicating them into every thread; it'd be
inefficient, but perfectly legal.

ChrisA

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Thread

Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 14:27 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 17:35 -0400
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-02 14:40 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2015-06-02 21:40 +0000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 09:56 +1000
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2015-06-03 15:56 +0200
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 07:35 +1000
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 22:56 +0100
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-03 15:28 -0700
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-03 21:30 -0400
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:52 +1000
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-04 23:47 +1000
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 17:25 +0300
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 14:37 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 18:04 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:51 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 03:11 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 20:30 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:30 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:31 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 18:38 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:52 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 09:04 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 09:11 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 12:27 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 14:04 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-04 21:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 09:13 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 01:16 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-05 02:40 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 11:48 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 11:06 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 07:44 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 10:51 +0100
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? ElChino <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2015-06-04 17:37 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:57 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:26 -0400
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:16 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 18:59 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 12:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 20:16 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 21:06 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 06:29 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 20:20 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 23:28 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:28 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:43 +1000
                Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 08:49 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:07 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 09:20 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:34 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 18:59 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 12:32 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 19:50 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-21 11:14 +0200
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 08:55 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:51 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:49 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-06 14:50 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:29 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:32 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dave Farrance <df@see.replyto.invalid> - 2015-06-06 07:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:53 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 08:21 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 16:37 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 19:07 -0700
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:36 -0600
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:51 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-04 20:17 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:45 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 08:59 +0200
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 08:16 -0600
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-05 11:55 -0700
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 01:01 -0400
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 12:34 -0600
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-04 20:16 +0100
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 09:56 +0300
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 10:57 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 21:35 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:47 +1000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:33 +1000

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