Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)

References	(15 earlier) <81cb1232-ecf8-4cf0-b29c-ecf2ca47ade0@googlegroups.com> <mailman.209.1433561282.13271.python-list@python.org> <c58d7868-feaf-492e-9fb9-9b0108c5914d@googlegroups.com> <mailman.212.1433569420.13271.python-list@python.org> <5fa1f672-50de-4481-9c5b-2c68c4e30f12@googlegroups.com>
Date	2015-06-08 02:07 +1000
Subject	Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.256.1433693277.13271.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Mon, Jun 8, 2015 at 1:49 AM, Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Saturday, June 6, 2015 at 11:13:52 AM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote:
>> On Sat, Jun 6, 2015 at 3:28 PM, Rustom Mody  wrote:
>> > You just repeated what Chris said, replacing 'immutable' with 'same'
>> > There was a list: [1,2,3]
>> > At some point that list is found to be(come) [1,2,3,4]
>> > They dont look same to me.
>>
>> "I'm going shopping, can you get me the shopping list please?"
>> *goes and fetches a piece of paper from the kitchen*
>> "Wait, this isn't the right list! This one has more things on it!"
>>
>> The question of whether or not the thing fetched is indeed the
>> shopping list is independent of the items on it. The list has an
>> identity and it has a value (the items needed). If I hand you an empty
>> list on the basis that the shopping list you placed there last week
>> was empty, I've destroyed the value of the posted shopping list -
>> people have added things to it during the week, and they expect those
>> things to be on the list that gets referenced to make purchases.
>
>
> Well that is a more useful metaphor than much of what I see being said here.
> [Most of what I see being summarizable into:
> This is the way python is
> Python is Holy Writ
> THOU SHALT NOT QUESTION
> ]
>
> So thanks Chris for a non-pythonic metaphor.
>
> May we look a little into it?
>
> Is your shopping list really a list? If I have:
>
> 1. Bread
> 2. Eggs
> 3. Rice
>
> Presumably that's the 'same' list as
>
> 1. Eggs
> 2. Bread
> 3. Rice
>
> IOW if we have to make a python data-structure for it, the (python) list
> ["eggs", "bread", "rice"]
> is overspecific. Whereas the set
> set(["eggs", "bread", "rice"])
> works better for the simple reason that python will conform with our informal
> expectation of the two differently listed shopping lists being
> equal with the set data structure and not the list data structure.  ie
> ["eggs", "bread", "rice"] == ["bread", "eggs", "rice"] fails
> whereas
> set(["eggs", "bread", "rice"]) == set(["bread", "eggs", "rice"]) works

Well, yes and no. I used the term "list" because most people don't
talk about a "shopping set", and the list that's posted does have an
order to it; the effect of the list will be the same regardless of
order, but the order might be useful for curiosity purposes - the
items at the head of the list have been on it longer than the ones at
the tail, so they most likely will be more needed. For a comparison,
I'm sure you'd agree that the order of a program's arguments matters,
so you need a list and not a set; but if you type "cp spam eggs ham
target/" it's going to have the same net result as "cp eggs spam ham
target/", in that all three files will be copied to the same target
directory.

There are plenty of real-world lists where order turns out to not
matter, but they still retain that order. On any membership list, the
important thing is whether you're on it or not, but somewhere on a
sheet of paper, someone's going to be higher and someone's going to be
lower. A list of the different types of Cadbury Roses has to be sorted
one way or another; the Wikipedia page [1] mentions Cherry Heaven
above Turkish Delight, but my blog [2] has them the other way around -
is one of them somehow wrong? These are, in a way, sets masquerading
as lists, but given that many contexts don't really allow any
distinction, it's not usually considered to be a problem.

So you can call them sets if you like, but there's no real
significance either way.

ChrisA

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadbury_Roses
[2] http://rosuav.blogspot.com.au/2012/06/scientific-research-into-cadbury-roses.html

Thread

Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 14:27 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 17:35 -0400
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-02 14:40 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2015-06-02 21:40 +0000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 09:56 +1000
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2015-06-03 15:56 +0200
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 07:35 +1000
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 22:56 +0100
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-03 15:28 -0700
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-03 21:30 -0400
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:52 +1000
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-04 23:47 +1000
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 17:25 +0300
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 14:37 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 18:04 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:51 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 03:11 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 20:30 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:30 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:31 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 18:38 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:52 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 09:04 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 09:11 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 12:27 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 14:04 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-04 21:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 09:13 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 01:16 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-05 02:40 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 11:48 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 11:06 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 07:44 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 10:51 +0100
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? ElChino <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2015-06-04 17:37 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:57 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:26 -0400
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:16 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 18:59 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 12:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 20:16 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 21:06 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 06:29 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 20:20 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 23:28 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:28 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:43 +1000
                Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 08:49 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:07 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 09:20 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:34 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 18:59 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 12:32 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 19:50 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-21 11:14 +0200
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 08:55 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:51 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:49 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-06 14:50 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:29 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:32 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dave Farrance <df@see.replyto.invalid> - 2015-06-06 07:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:53 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 08:21 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 16:37 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 19:07 -0700
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:36 -0600
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:51 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-04 20:17 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:45 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 08:59 +0200
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 08:16 -0600
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-05 11:55 -0700
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 01:01 -0400
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 12:34 -0600
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-04 20:16 +0100
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 09:56 +0300
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 10:57 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 21:35 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:47 +1000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:33 +1000

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