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Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)

From Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com>
Subject Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?)
Date 2015-06-21 08:55 -0400
References (12 earlier) <4fdc38b3-6b51-4f98-9ba3-42b265582fc0@googlegroups.com> <mailman.258.1433694866.13271.python-list@python.org> <762816ac-c744-480b-a9f9-a0110451c516@googlegroups.com> <mailman.666.1434853946.13271.python-list@python.org> <5037b4a5-94a9-4995-828f-9624804da20a@googlegroups.com>
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.677.1434891363.13271.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 06/20/2015 10:50 PM, Rustom Mody wrote:
> Here is Eric Snow:
>
> | Keep in mind that by "immutability" I'm talking about*really*
> | immutable, perhaps going so far as treating the full memory space
> | associated with an object as frozen.  For instance, we'd have to
> | ensure that "immutable" Python objects like strings, ints, and tuples
> | do not change (i.e. via the C API).  The contents of involved
> | tuples/containers would have to be likewise immutable.  Even changing
> | refcounts could be too much, hence the idea of moving refcounts out to
> | a separate table.
> |
> | This level of immutability would be something new to Python.  We'll
> | see if it's necessary.  If it isn't too much work it might be a good
> | idea regardless of the multi-core proposal.
>
> Does the second para look like CPython implementation or python-the-language?
>
> Also note the 'Even' in the first para. ie Eric is talking of low-level
> (ie thread-safety, refcounting etc) immutability after the even and higher
> level semantic immutability before

It seems to me, this will take a lot more changes to python overall.

Adding a way to raise an exception if an object is mutated would be a good 
initial step.  Have it turned off by default.

I think it will be needed to test how any of the above is working.

It may also allow some multiprocessing just by avoiding raising any 
MutatedObject exceptions.

Cheers,
    Ron

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Thread

Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 14:27 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 17:35 -0400
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-02 14:40 -0700
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2015-06-02 21:40 +0000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 09:56 +1000
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Thomas Rachel <nutznetz-0c1b6768-bfa9-48d5-a470-7603bd3aa915@spamschutz.glglgl.de> - 2015-06-03 15:56 +0200
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 07:35 +1000
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 22:56 +0100
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-03 15:28 -0700
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-03 21:30 -0400
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:52 +1000
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-04 23:47 +1000
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 17:25 +0300
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 14:37 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 18:04 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:51 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 03:11 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-04 20:30 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:30 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:31 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-04 18:38 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:52 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 09:04 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-05 02:02 +0000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 09:11 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 12:27 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 14:04 +0200
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-04 21:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 09:13 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 01:16 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-05 02:40 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 11:48 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 11:06 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 07:44 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-05 10:51 +0100
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? ElChino <elchino@cnn.cn> - 2015-06-04 17:37 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2015-06-04 19:57 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:26 -0400
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:16 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 18:59 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 12:37 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 20:16 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 21:06 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 06:29 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 07:59 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 20:20 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 23:28 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:28 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:43 +1000
                Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 08:49 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:07 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-07 09:20 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-08 02:34 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 18:59 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 12:32 +1000
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-20 19:50 -0700
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-21 11:14 +0200
                Re: Lawful != Mutable (was Can Python function return multiple data?) Ron Adam <ron3200@gmail.com> - 2015-06-21 08:55 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:51 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 13:49 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-06 14:50 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 15:29 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-05 22:32 -0700
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Dave Farrance <df@see.replyto.invalid> - 2015-06-06 07:52 +0100
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:53 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-05 08:21 -0400
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-05 16:37 +0300
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 19:07 -0700
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 11:36 -0600
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 13:51 -0400
            Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-04 20:17 +0200
              Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 08:45 +1000
                Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Alain Ketterlin <alain@universite-de-strasbourg.fr.invalid> - 2015-06-05 08:59 +0200
          Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 08:16 -0600
        Re: Can Python function return multiple data? sohcahtoa82@gmail.com - 2015-06-05 11:55 -0700
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-04 01:01 -0400
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 12:34 -0600
      Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-04 20:16 +0100
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2015-06-04 09:56 +0300
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? fl <rxjwg98@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 10:57 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-06 21:35 -0700
    Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:47 +1000
  Re: Can Python function return multiple data? Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-07 15:33 +1000

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