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Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language

Subject Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language
From Paul Smith <paul@mad-scientist.net>
Date 2013-12-17 22:49 -0500
References (5 earlier) <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com> <mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org> <20131217165144.39bf9ba1cd4e4f27a96893ca@gmx.net> <roy-B8D4E2.19322017122013@news.panix.com> <52b0fb4f$0$29973$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Organization GNU's Not UNIX!
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.4330.1387338989.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Wed, 2013-12-18 at 01:33 +0000, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> And "What does 'implementation-specific undefined behaviour' actually 
> mean in practice?", another common question when dealing with C.

Only asked by people who haven't had it explained.  There's "undefined
behavior", and there's "implementation-specific behavior", but it is
impossible to have "implementation-specific undefined behavior".

And, the definitions are simple to understand: "undefined behavior"
means that if your program invokes it, there is no definition of what
will happen.  This is buggy code.

"Implementation-specific" behavior means that the standard requires the
implementation to do some well-defined thing, but the standard does not
define exactly what it must be.  You can go look up what your
implementation will do in its documentation (the standard requires that
it be documented), but you can't assume the same thing will happen in
another implementation.  This is non-portable code.

It's a very rare language indeed that has no undefined or
implementation-specific behaviors.  Python gets to "cheat" by having one
reference implementation.  Every time you've had to go try something out
in the Python interpreter because the documentation didn't provide the
details you needed, that WAS implementation-specific behavior.

> > You never have to wonder what the
> > lifetime of an object is, 
> 
> Since C isn't object oriented, the lifetime of objects in C is, um, any 
> number you like. "The lifetime of objects in <some language with no 
> objects> is ONE MILLION YEARS!!!" is as good as any other vacuously true 
> statement.

The implication that only an "object oriented" language could have a
concept of object lifetimes is false.  Another, less hyperbolic way of
saying this is that in C, the lifetime of objects is _exactly as long as
you specify_.  Heap objects come into existence when you explicitly
create them, and they go out of existence when you explicitly destroy
them.  If you don't destroy them, they never go away.  If you destroy
them more than once, that's undefined behavior.  Stack objects are even
simpler.

> > or be mystified by which of the 7 signatures
> > of Foo.foo() are going to get called, 
> 
> Is that even possible in C? If Foo is a struct, and Foo.foo a member, I 
> don't think C has first-class functions and so Foo.foo can't be callable.

Of course that's valid C.  It's true that C doesn't have first-class
functions, but it supports invoking functions through pointers and you
can store functions in data members, pass functions as arguments, and
return functions from other functions, so Foo.foo can certainly be
callable.

~$ cat /tmp/foo.c
#include <stdio.h>

struct Foo {
    void (*foo)();
};

void foobar(void) { printf("foobar\n"); }

int main()
{
    struct Foo Foo = { foobar };
    Foo.foo();
    return 0;
}

$ gcc -Wall -o /tmp/foo /tmp/foo.c

$ /tmp/foo
foobar

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Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 12:23 +0000
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 05:54 -0800
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 08:57 -0800
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-12-09 12:55 -0500
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-10 18:25 +1300
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-10 16:55 +1100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming   language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-11 10:38 +1300
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-10 20:35 -0500
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 02:16 +0000
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 07:08 -0500
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-11 15:05 +0000
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:47 -0800
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-16 20:06 -0500
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 01:25 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 +1100
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-16 20:32 -0500
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Cousin Stanley" <cousinstanley@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 07:32 -0700
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 -0500
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-11 15:46 +0000
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 23:32 +0000
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-09 18:42 -0500
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-10 00:00 +0000
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-09 20:56 -0500
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-12 21:36 +0100
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-13 08:12 +1100
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-16 21:32 +0100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-16 23:01 +0000
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-16 19:28 -0500
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:39 -0800
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:44 +1100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 17:58 -0800
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 02:33 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 20:41 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-17 14:51 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 09:54 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:07 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 15:24 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:35 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:21 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 08:56 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 10:03 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 05:20 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 13:39 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:17 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:12 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 12:18 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:51 +0100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 16:59 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:18 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:24 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:44 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 19:38 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:39 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:05 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:49 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 02:05 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 15:54 +0100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:40 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:05 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 23:16 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 15:26 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:48 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 09:14 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 22:03 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:40 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-17 20:20 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 17:09 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:32 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 01:33 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 13:11 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:22 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:32 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 07:53 -0500
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 01:55 +1100
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:10 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-18 15:17 +0000
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first
 programming language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 15:52 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:41 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-19 07:06 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:00 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:07 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:56 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 18:39 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 00:56 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Paul Smith <paul@mad-scientist.net> - 2013-12-17 22:49 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:18 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:51 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:02 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-18 07:23 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 08:53 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-18 19:29 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 17:15 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:12 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:28 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-19 18:40 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:18 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:38 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-20 00:45 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-20 02:16 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-20 18:58 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-20 21:04 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-27 14:35 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-18 17:33 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:06 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:18 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 00:21 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 07:53 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 18:33 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:01 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 19:12 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:24 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:49 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 11:54 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:29 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 04:50 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 21:09 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 05:36 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 21:31 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:30 -0500
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:18 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 10:06 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:10 +1100
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:22 +0100
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 16:14 +0100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming   language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-20 09:42 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:51 +1100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:09 +0000

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