Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language

References	(1 earlier) <20131212213602.806ef8fd2626ca6f34bc83d6@gmx.net> <mailman.4022.1386882776.18130.python-list@python.org> <20131216213225.2006b30246e3a08ee241a191@gmx.net> <mailman.4243.1387240110.18130.python-list@python.org> <e0d6b728-fbec-41a6-9c6b-250528998a28@googlegroups.com>
From	Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com>
Date	2013-12-17 11:12 +0000
Subject	Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.4276.1387278755.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 17 December 2013 00:39, rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 17, 2013 5:58:12 AM UTC+5:30, Ned Batchelder wrote:
>> On 12/16/13 3:32 PM, Wolfgang Keller wrote:
>> >>> And ever after that experience, I avoided all languages that were
>> >>> even remotely similar to C, such as C++, Java, C#, Javascript, PHP
>> >>> etc.

Thanks for sharing your experiences Wolfgang. I think many of my
students have a similar experience after learning C and it is
interesting to hear it from your perspective many years later.

I was also taught C as an undergrad but having already learned Java, C
and C++ before arriving at University I found the C course very easy
so my own experience is not representative. Many of the other students
at that time found the course too hard and just cheated on all the
assignments (I remember one students offering to fix/finish anyone's
assignment in exchange for a bottle of cider!).

>> >> I think that's disappointing, for two reasons. Firstly, C syntax isn't
>> >> that terrible.
>>
>> > It's not just the abysmally appalling, hideously horrifying syntax. At
>> > about everything about C is just *not* "made for human beings" imho.
>
>> I've never heard C syntax reviled quite so intensely.  What syntax do
>> you like, out of curiosity?
>
> I had a paper some years ago on why C is a horrible language *to teach with*
> http://www.the-magus.in/Publications/chor.pdf

Thanks for this Rusi, I just read it and it describes very well what I
think about our own C course. My choice quote from the beginning would
be "When the irrelevant becomes significant, the essentials become
obscured and incomprehensible."

(BTW is there any reason that the document is repeated twice in the same pdf?)

As a case in point one of my tutees asked for help with his C
assignment last week. I looked at his code and it was a complete mess.
I explained roughly what it should look like and he explained that he
had had so much trouble figuring out how to get the compiler to pass a
pair of strings into a function that he had given up and used global
variables instead. He's just not ready yet to get an intuitive
understanding of where to put the asterisks in order to make it work -
and as you point out in that paper the rules for where the asterisks
go are hopelessly inconsistent.

A couple of weeks before, another of my tutees brought their
assignment which was about dynamic memory allocation (~7 weeks into
her first programming course). She had just written something like
   char *x = (char*)malloc(31*sizeof(char));
for a global x at the top of the file. So the message about dynamic
memory allocation was entirely lost in the details of C: "dynamic
memory allocation means using malloc".

These types of problems are compounded by the fact that the current C
course uses automated marking so a program that produces the correct
output gets full marks even if it is terribly written and the student
entirely misses the point - another thing about this course that
definitely needs to change.

> I believe people did not get then (and still dont) that bad for
> - beginner education (CS101)
> - intermediate -- compilers, OS, DBMS etc
> - professional software engineering
>
> are all almost completely unrelated

Agreed.

Oscar

Thread

Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 12:23 +0000
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 05:54 -0800
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-09 08:57 -0800
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language William Ray Wing <wrw@mac.com> - 2013-12-09 12:55 -0500
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-10 18:25 +1300
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-10 16:55 +1100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming   language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-11 10:38 +1300
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-10 20:35 -0500
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 02:16 +0000
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-11 07:08 -0500
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-11 15:05 +0000
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:47 -0800
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-16 20:06 -0500
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 01:25 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 +1100
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-16 20:32 -0500
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Cousin Stanley" <cousinstanley@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 07:32 -0700
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gene Heskett <gheskett@wdtv.com> - 2013-12-17 12:27 -0500
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-11 15:46 +0000
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-09 23:32 +0000
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-09 18:42 -0500
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.demon.co.uk> - 2013-12-10 00:00 +0000
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-09 20:56 -0500
  Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-12 21:36 +0100
    Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-13 08:12 +1100
      Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-16 21:32 +0100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-16 23:01 +0000
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-16 19:28 -0500
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 16:39 -0800
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:44 +1100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 17:58 -0800
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 02:33 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-12-16 20:41 -0800
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-17 14:51 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 09:54 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:07 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 15:24 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 15:35 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:21 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 08:56 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 10:03 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 05:20 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 13:39 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:17 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 11:12 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-17 12:18 +0000
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:51 +0100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 16:59 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Larry Martell <larry.martell@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 12:18 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:24 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-17 17:44 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-17 19:38 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:39 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:05 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:17 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:49 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 02:05 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 15:54 +0100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:40 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:05 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 23:16 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 15:26 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:48 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 09:14 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 22:03 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:40 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-17 20:20 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 17:09 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-17 19:32 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 01:33 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 13:11 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:22 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:32 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 07:53 -0500
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 01:55 +1100
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:10 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-18 15:17 +0000
                Re: Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first
 programming language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-18 15:52 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 19:41 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming
 language Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-12-19 07:06 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-12-18 18:00 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 18:07 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-18 20:56 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-19 18:39 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 00:56 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Paul Smith <paul@mad-scientist.net> - 2013-12-17 22:49 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 08:18 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 19:51 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:02 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-12-18 07:23 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 08:53 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-18 19:29 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 16:20 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-18 17:15 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:12 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:28 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-12-19 18:40 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:18 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:38 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-20 00:45 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-20 02:16 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-12-20 18:58 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2013-12-20 21:04 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-27 14:35 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-12-18 17:33 -0500
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 17:06 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 04:18 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 00:21 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-18 07:53 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 18:33 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:01 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-12-17 19:12 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 14:24 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language "Rhodri James" <rhodri@wildebst.org.uk> - 2013-12-19 00:49 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-19 11:54 +1100
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 20:29 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 04:50 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 21:09 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-12-19 05:36 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-12-19 21:31 +0000
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-12-19 19:30 -0500
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:18 -0800
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Oscar Benjamin <oscar.j.benjamin@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 10:06 +0000
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-18 01:10 +1100
          Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-17 16:22 +0100
            Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Wolfgang Keller <feliphil@gmx.net> - 2013-12-19 16:14 +0100
              Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming   language Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2013-12-20 09:42 +1300
                Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-12-20 07:51 +1100
        Re: Experiences/guidance on teaching Python as a first programming language dkcombs@panix.com (David Combs) - 2014-01-29 03:09 +0000

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