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Re: Default scope of variables

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On 4 July 2013 05:07, Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Steven D'Aprano
> <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
>> With respect to the Huffman coding of declarations, Javascript gets it
>> backwards. Locals ought to be more common, but they require more typing.
>> Locals are safer, better, more desirable than globals, and so it should
>> be easier to use locals than globals, not the other way around. Having to
>> declare "give me the safe kind of variable", while getting the harmful[1]
>> kind of variable for free, strikes me as arse-backwards. Lazy, naive or
>> careless coders get globals[2] by default or accident. That's bad.
>
> I agree that Javascript has it wrong, but not quite for the reason you
> say. The advantage of declaring locals is a flexibility: you can have
> multiple unique variables with the same name in the same function.
> Python lets you do that across but not within functions.
>
> But Javascript/ECMAScript/whatever doesn't give you that. A var
> declaration makes it function-local, no matter where the declaration
> is.

Coffeescript, which compiles to Javascript, "fixes" the problem Steven
brought up by automatically declaring variables so that you don't have
to. But what do you think this does?:

a = 1
func = ->
    a = 2
    b = 2

The "a" in "func" is global, the "b" is local. And Coffeescript
*doesn't let* you shadow even if you explicitly want to. There just
isn't syntax for it.

That said, I'm not too convinced. Personally, the proper way to do
what you are talking about is creating a new closure. Like:

for i in range(100):
    with new_scope():
        for i in range(100):
            func(i)
    func(i) # Using i from original loop

But it's not like Python'll ever support that.

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Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 03:27 +0000
  Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 14:07 +1000
    Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 05:32 +0000
      Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 15:47 +1000
        Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 16:38 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 02:58 +1000
          Re: Default scope of variables Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-07-07 08:13 -0500
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-07 23:43 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-07 16:03 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 10:46 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 14:52 +1000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 15:07 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 16:08 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 16:13 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 09:35 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 17:45 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 01:56 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 10:22 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 10:38 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 09:07 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 10:44 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 10:23 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 12:41 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 12:19 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-10 07:54 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 09:42 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-10 08:29 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-11 07:52 +0200
          Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-07 09:52 -0700
          Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-07 11:59 -0700
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 10:48 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-08 02:23 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 13:11 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-08 05:00 +0000
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 15:14 +1000
      Re: Default scope of variables Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-07-04 08:48 +0200
      Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 01:12 -0600
      Re: Default scope of variables Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-07-04 03:06 -0400
        Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 15:52 +0000
        Re: Default scope of variables Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-07-04 17:54 +0100
          Re: Default scope of variables Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-07-04 20:36 +0200
          Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 01:04 +0100
          Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-05 01:24 +0000
            Re: Default scope of variables Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-07-04 22:03 -0400
            Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 03:29 +0100
            Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 03:27 +0100
            Re: Default scope of variables Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-07-05 07:28 +0100
        Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-05 13:24 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 23:43 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-05 15:36 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-07 16:08 +0000
            Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-08 11:54 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 14:14 +0100
      Re: Default scope of variables Lele Gaifax <lele@metapensiero.it> - 2013-07-04 14:43 +0200
      Re: Default scope of variables Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-07-04 10:45 -0500
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 05:30 +0100
    Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 05:45 +0000
  Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 14:36 +1000
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 06:09 +0100
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 17:58 +0100

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