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Re: Default scope of variables

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On Thu, Jul 4, 2013 at 1:27 PM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> With respect to the Huffman coding of declarations, Javascript gets it
> backwards. Locals ought to be more common, but they require more typing.
> Locals are safer, better, more desirable than globals, and so it should
> be easier to use locals than globals, not the other way around. Having to
> declare "give me the safe kind of variable", while getting the harmful[1]
> kind of variable for free, strikes me as arse-backwards. Lazy, naive or
> careless coders get globals[2] by default or accident. That's bad.

I agree that Javascript has it wrong, but not quite for the reason you
say. The advantage of declaring locals is a flexibility: you can have
multiple unique variables with the same name in the same function.
Python lets you do that across but not within functions.

But Javascript/ECMAScript/whatever doesn't give you that. A var
declaration makes it function-local, no matter where the declaration
is. That's pointless. C++, on the other hand, lets you do this:

void somefunc() {
    for (int i=0;i<10;++i) {
        // do something with outer i
        for (int i=0;i<4;++i) {
            // do something with inner i
        }
        // outer i is visible again
    }
    // neither i is visible
}

Also, C++ overlays the "this is local" declaration with the "this
contains this type" declaration, which neither Python nor Javascript
bothers with; that makes the declaration feel less redundant.

Granted, this flexibility is mostly of value when writing huge
functions with complex nesting, but it is something that I find
convenient.

In terms of Huffman coding, every C++ variable must be declared,
somewhere. It's not a matter of declaring globals or declaring locals
- you just declare variables. If you declare them at file scope,
they're globals; if at function scope, they're locals. There's really
no difference. Everything's visible at its own level and those further
in, and not those further out.

I do see the convenience of the Python system, and I do like it; but
someone needs to speak up for the foolish and pathetic :)

ChrisA

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Thread

Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 03:27 +0000
  Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 14:07 +1000
    Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 05:32 +0000
      Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 15:47 +1000
        Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 16:38 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 02:58 +1000
          Re: Default scope of variables Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-07-07 08:13 -0500
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-07 23:43 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-07 16:03 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 10:46 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 14:52 +1000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 15:07 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 16:08 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 16:13 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 09:35 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 17:45 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 01:56 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 10:22 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-09 10:38 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 09:07 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 10:44 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 10:23 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-09 12:41 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-09 12:19 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-10 07:54 +0200
                Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-10 09:42 -0600
                Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-10 08:29 -0700
                Re: Default scope of variables "Frank Millman" <frank@chagford.com> - 2013-07-11 07:52 +0200
          Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-07 09:52 -0700
          Re: Default scope of variables Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-07-07 11:59 -0700
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 10:48 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-08 02:23 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 13:11 +1000
                Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-08 05:00 +0000
                Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 15:14 +1000
      Re: Default scope of variables Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-07-04 08:48 +0200
      Re: Default scope of variables Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 01:12 -0600
      Re: Default scope of variables Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-07-04 03:06 -0400
        Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 15:52 +0000
        Re: Default scope of variables Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-07-04 17:54 +0100
          Re: Default scope of variables Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2013-07-04 20:36 +0200
          Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 01:04 +0100
          Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-05 01:24 +0000
            Re: Default scope of variables Dave Angel <davea@davea.name> - 2013-07-04 22:03 -0400
            Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 03:29 +0100
            Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 03:27 +0100
            Re: Default scope of variables Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-07-05 07:28 +0100
        Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-05 13:24 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-05 23:43 +1000
            Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-05 15:36 +0000
          Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-07 16:08 +0000
            Re: Default scope of variables Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-08 11:54 +0000
              Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 14:14 +0100
      Re: Default scope of variables Lele Gaifax <lele@metapensiero.it> - 2013-07-04 14:43 +0200
      Re: Default scope of variables Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-07-04 10:45 -0500
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 05:30 +0100
    Re: Default scope of variables Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-04 05:45 +0000
  Re: Default scope of variables Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 14:36 +1000
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-04 06:09 +0100
  Re: Default scope of variables Joshua Landau <joshua.landau.ws@gmail.com> - 2013-07-08 17:58 +0100

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