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Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?

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Date Tue, 25 Jun 2013 16:00:56 -0700
Subject Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?
From Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
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Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:49211

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>> Here's how it *should* be made:  the most superest, most badassed
>> object should take care of its children.  New instances should
>> automatically call up the super chain (and not leave it up to the
>> subclasses), so that the parent classes can take care of the chil'en.
>>  When something goes wrong the parent class has to look in and see
>> what's wrong.
>
> So what you're saying is that the first class defined does everything,
> and subclasses _restrict_ what can be done? I disagree strongly:

That's right.  Just as the *machine* restricts what can be done.  It's
an upturning of the purity model and going back to practicality.

> 1) That breaks the Liskov Substitution Principle. A subclass of list
> ought to fulfill the contracts of a basic list.

We don't need LSP.  I write about this on the WIkiWikiWeb where there
were many arguments documented and many hairs frazzled.  LSP was
derived from AlanKay's abstract idea of "Everything is an object".
But no -- there is a *physics* for information, and it ends at the
machine types.

> 2) It implies that someone can invent an all-encompassing superclass
> before any subclassing is done.

No, we start with basic types and work upwards.  The
"all-encompassing" superclass it an all-encompassing data object:  in
mathematics, it's called a SET -- and mathematics has already done the
work to prove that it's the most generic and all-encompassing, a field
of SET THEORY.

> This kinda violates the laws of
> information. Programmers, being creative entities, will be adding to
> the pool of knowledge. Trying to shoehorn everything into one object
> won't work.

No, we don't need programmers adding to the "pool of knowledge" -- the
internet does that.  We need programmers making data objects that can
present data in new and more interesting ways -- starting from basic
principles.

-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington

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What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 19:58 -0700
  Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 03:20 +0000
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 22:27 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 05:23 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 23:40 -0600
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:29 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 02:53 +0100
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 06:31 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 16:00 +0100
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:23 -0600
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam Jiang <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 22:35 +0900
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 10:15 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 16:35 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 12:49 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:08 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 14:14 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:18 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:36 +0000
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 12:04 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:50 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:09 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:12 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 15:24 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:27 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 21:38 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 08:06 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-24 08:41 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 08:58 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 23:51 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:26 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:14 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 23:54 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 19:03 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 17:38 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:46 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:05 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:37 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:33 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-23 21:33 +0200
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:44 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 14:58 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:17 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:21 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:25 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:29 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:27 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:38 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:39 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:47 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:57 +1000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-26 16:16 +0100
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 01:23 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:07 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:08 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:10 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:19 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 08:36 +0000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 10:19 +1000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:55 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:00 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:19 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:07 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 17:25 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 02:53 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:54 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 12:56 +0200
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:12 -0700

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