Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?

References	(5 earlier) <51C74D6E.6030200@rece.vub.ac.be> <CALwzidnf0h3GUdeQFjwwhMYXXJVyOCFuE-kc564k-j_1icoC_g@mail.gmail.com> <CAMjeLr-Kqg1uu+CSn+jKXLF7bQHrci06WewgJHF+b+AwZwQAaw@mail.gmail.com> <CALwzidk2dsJz1eh0PhGdGR1Nj=atbuG09vMXjbPOf3k=LsoB2Q@mail.gmail.com> <CAMjeLr_pr2OPYzR=tQgkV8ekk37_Uif3g+8nGzPVUY5Kd7+v7g@mail.gmail.com>
From	Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
Date	2013-06-25 17:07 -0600
Subject	Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.3861.1372201668.3114.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 4:38 PM, Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry my last message got sent prematurely.  Retrying...
>
>> So instead of super(), you would have sub()?  It's an interesting
>> concept, but I don't think it changes anything.  You still have to
>> design your classes cooperatively if you expect to use them with
>> multiple inheritance.
>
> Yes, and let new instances of the child classes automatically ensure
> the contracts of the parent classes -- managed within the Python
> interpreter, not the developer.

It sounds like you want to be using Eiffel, not Python.

> As for sub(), I suppose it could be called delegate().

You can call it that, but you'll just be muddying the waters since
there's already a perfectly good pattern by that name, which involves
having multiple distinct objects and has nothing to do with
inheritance.

> The issue of classes cooperating isn't as big as it seems, because
> since you're working now from a useful, agreed-upon common base (the
> non-negotiable, but also non-arbitrary) machine types, you're now all
> (the python and ideally the *object* community) speaking the same
> language.   Who's going to argue about integers (as the atomic type)
> and sets (as the most basic grouping type) being THE common set of
> bases for everything else?  I mean, it doesn't get anymore ideal and
> pure than integers and sets.  Combining integers with sets I can make
> a Rational class and have infinite-precision arithmetic, for example.

I don't see how this solves anything.  At some point you have to be
able to add methods and attributes to your objects.  For example, your
Rational class is going to need some sort of "reduce" method to reduce
a Rational instance to lowest terms.  That's not a method that belongs
on an integer or set type.  If you can't add functionality, then all
you will ever have are integers and sets, and if you can add
functionality, then what difference does it make what your fundamental
base class is?

>From a programming perspective, I think it is proper that "object" is
the most fundamental base class, because all it has is identity.
Integers and sets add other functionality on top of that.

Thread

What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 19:58 -0700
  Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 03:20 +0000
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 22:27 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 05:23 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 23:40 -0600
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:29 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 02:53 +0100
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 06:31 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 16:00 +0100
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:23 -0600
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam Jiang <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 22:35 +0900
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 10:15 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 16:35 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 12:49 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:08 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 14:14 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:18 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:36 +0000
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 12:04 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:50 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:09 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:12 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 15:24 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:27 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 21:38 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 08:06 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-24 08:41 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 08:58 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 23:51 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:26 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:14 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 23:54 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 19:03 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 17:38 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:46 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:05 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:37 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:33 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-23 21:33 +0200
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:44 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 14:58 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:17 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:21 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:25 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:29 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:27 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:38 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:39 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:47 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:57 +1000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-26 16:16 +0100
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 01:23 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:07 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:08 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:10 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:19 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 08:36 +0000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 10:19 +1000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:55 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:00 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:19 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:07 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 17:25 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 02:53 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:54 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 12:56 +0200
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:12 -0700

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