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Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?

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Date Tue, 25 Jun 2013 14:58:28 -0700
Subject Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'?
From Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com>
To Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com>
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Xref csiph.com comp.lang.python:49191

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> This bothers me as well.  If you look at Raymond Hettinger's "super()
> considered super" article, he includes the (correct) advice that
> super() needs to be used at every level of the call chain.  At the end
> of the article, he offers this example to show how "easy" multiple
> inheritance can be:
> [...]
> oc = OrderedCounter('abracadabra')
>
> Which is pretty cool in its simplicity, but here's the rub (which I
> have previously noted on this list): OrderedDict doesn't use super.
> Counter does, but not cooperatively; it just calls super().__init__()
> with no arguments.  So the fact that this example works at all is
> basically luck.

Ah, and here we see the weakness in the object architecture that has
evolved in the past decade (not just in Python, note).  It hasn't
really ironed out what end is what.   Here's a proposal:  the highest,
most "parental", most general object should be in charge, not
subclasses calling specific parent's init methods
(Parent.__init__(myparams)), etc. -- ***THIS IS WHERE WE WENT
WRONG***.

After the "type/class unification", python tried to make the most
generic, most useless class be the parent of *all of them*, but
there's been no use whatsoever in that.  It was a good idea in the
beginning, so pure as it was, but it has not panned out in practice.
Sorry...

I'm trying to start a recovery plan at the wikiwikiweb
(http://c2.com/cgi/wiki?WikiWikiWeb) and I don't want to hear any more
smarmy comments about it.  The confusion is deeper than Python.
-- 
MarkJ
Tacoma, Washington

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What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 19:58 -0700
  Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 03:20 +0000
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 22:27 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 05:23 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-22 23:40 -0600
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:29 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 02:53 +0100
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 06:31 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-24 16:00 +0100
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:23 -0600
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Adam Jiang <jiang.adam@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 22:35 +0900
    Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 10:15 -0600
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 16:35 +0000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 12:49 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:08 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 14:14 -0400
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 11:18 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 17:36 +0000
              Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 12:04 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:50 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:09 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:12 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 15:24 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 01:27 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-23 21:38 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 08:06 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-06-24 08:41 -0400
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 08:58 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-24 23:51 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-24 11:26 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:14 -0700
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 23:54 +0000
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 19:03 -0600
                Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 17:38 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-23 18:46 +0000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:05 -0600
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2013-06-26 13:37 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:33 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-23 21:33 +0200
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 11:44 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 14:58 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:17 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:21 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:25 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:29 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:27 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 15:38 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:39 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:47 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 08:57 +1000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-06-26 16:16 +0100
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-27 01:23 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:07 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:08 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 17:10 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:19 -0700
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-06-26 08:36 +0000
          Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 10:19 +1000
            Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-28 11:55 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 16:00 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:19 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-06-25 18:07 -0700
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 17:25 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 02:53 -0600
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-06-26 09:54 +1000
        Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2013-06-26 12:56 +0200
      Re: What is the semantics meaning of 'object'? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-06-23 13:12 -0700

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