Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python]

Date	2012-08-23 14:22 -0500
From	Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>
Subject	Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python]
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On 08/23/2012 12:56 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> On Thu, 23 Aug 2012 12:17:03 -0500, Evan Driscoll wrote:
> 
>> I definitely *wouldn't* say "Python
>> classes aren't really classes" -- even though (I assert) Python classes
>> are *far* further from Simula-style (/Java/C++) classes than Python
>> variables are from Java variables.
> 
> Well, Python classes are first-class (pun not intended) objects in their 
> own right, and hence are data. Java and C++ classes are not, they are 
> instructions to the compiler rather than data.
> 
> But other than that, what do you see as the difference between Python 
> classes and Simula-style classes?

So first, to some extent that's like saying "these two different things
are different in this important way, but other than that, what's the
difference?" :-)

But there are some other differences. (Not all of these are strictly
with classes per se, but I would say they all have strong interactions
with the object system.)

* Explicit 'self'. OK, this sounds just like a minor syntactic
  difference, and in some respect it is. (For some time I considered it
  an annoying piece of syntactic salt.) But it has significant
  interactions with other things which you can do, such as using a
  method as just a normal function ('type(c).f(c)' ~= 'c.f()')
  or attaching other functions to an instance or a class (more on that
  later).

  This is definitely my weakest argument. :-)

* Fields. In Simula-style classes, you can tell easily what fields a
  class and its objects contain. In Python, that question from some
  point of view doesn't even make sense (in the absence of __slots__).
  Fields are a property of the *objects* rather than the class, and
  two objects of the same class don't necessarily have the same fields.

  Related to this point we have...

* What it means for an object to have a particular class type. With
  Simula-style classes, if I have an object 'o' of class 'c', then I
  know that 'o' has the functions and fields defined by 'c'. Now, the
  virtual functions may have been overriden in base classes and stuff,
  and maydbe they'll always fail, but I at least know they're *there*.

  In Python, I know... well, nothing basically. As far as I know, it's
  possible to make it so that o's only relation to 'c' is what
  'type(o)' and 'instanceof' say. (And maybe you can even override
  those, I dunno!) You can go through and add/remove/replace functions.
  Two different objects of the same class may have completely disjoint
  sets of attributes.

> Given:
> 
> x = some_object()
> y = x
> 
> I could say that x and y are the same object, rather than x and y are 
> references to the same object.

Huh, fair enough.

>> To me, saying "here's an alternative way to look at variables" is great,
>> but saying "Python doesn't have variables" is, IMO, at least as silly as
>> what Jussi said. To me, dancing around the issue just leads to more
>> confusing terminology and makes things worse.
>>
>> (And this is reinforced by the fact that neither I nor Google seems to
>> have really seen "Python doesn't have classes" ever used, when that
>> statement is at least as true as "Python doesn't have variables".)
> 
> I think you are utterly wrong here.
> 
> Python has classes. They are created by the "class" keyword. Whether 
> those classes are identical to Java classes is irrelevant -- in Python, 
> these whatever-they-are-things are called "classes", and so Python has 
> classes.
> 
> But Python does not have things called "variables". There is no 
> "variable" keyword to create a variable.

OK, let's make a new language. I'll call it 'Python--' because at least
*I* wouldn't want to program in it. :-)

In Python--, any time you use a name, you have to prefix it with the
word 'variable':
  variable x = 4
  print(variable x)

Does Python-- have variables? Does Python? To me, the answer to those
questions basically has to be the same -- after all, the new 'variable'
keyword didn't really change the language, just have it a slightly
different concrete syntax. Heck, if I wanted to implement Python--, the
only thing I'd have to change in a Python implementation is the lexer!

And if you say "no, Python-- doesn't have variables, it just has
something that it wrongly calls variables", then it's no contradiction
to say "Python doesn't have classes, it just has something that it
wrongly calls classes."

Think of it as duck-typing the term "variable". :-) To me, Python locals
and globals look and quack like a variable.

Incidentally, I also realized another reason I don't like the 'names'
description. Take 'foo.bar'. (That is, the 'bar' attribute in object
'foo'.) Is 'foo.bar' a name? I'm not sure what the 'names' proponents
would say, but to me both answers are problematic. I *really* dislike a
'no' answer because to me, 'foo.bar' absolutely *is* a name for the
corresponding object. (This terminology has precedent.) But a 'yes'
answer, if you also reject 'variable', means you no longer have an
agreed-upon term for the names that are defined in the current scope --
and such a term is a really good thing to have! (<cheeky>I know, let's
call them variables. :-)</cheeky>)

Evan

Thread

Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 07:13 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 10:31 -0400
  Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-22 17:31 +0300
  Re: Objects in Python Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-22 16:36 +0200
  Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 15:59 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 16:58 +0100
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:10 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:30 +0100
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:06 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:07 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-22 13:01 -0400
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:46 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 12:15 -0600
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:03 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:02 +1000
              Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:11 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:26 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 20:02 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0600
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 22:43 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-25 23:14 -0700
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:23 +0100
        Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 14:03 -0500
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:45 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 21:31 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 21:46 +0100
              Methods versus functions [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:07 +0000
            Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 16:31 -0500
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 10:19 +0100
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 11:44 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 18:56 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 09:58 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 18:10 -0600
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 23:49 -0500
            Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 06:55 +0000
              Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-23 11:59 +0300
                Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-23 12:28 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:43 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 17:56 +0000
                Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 14:22 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 10:02 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 02:05 +0000
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-25 15:24 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 08:00 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 03:04 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 16:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 09:55 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:23 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 12:01 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 15:56 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 09:27 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 20:43 -0400
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:25 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 09:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 09:49 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:52 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:54 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 10:01 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-23 13:17 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:16 +1000
            Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-23 20:36 -0400
              Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 11:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 20:17 -0700
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-24 04:14 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:00 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-24 13:27 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 05:18 +1000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:45 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:58 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 14:18 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:54 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 22:47 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 10:02 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:14 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-26 16:12 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 23:29 +0000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 16:22 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 12:02 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-26 15:02 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:05 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 09:41 -0400
              Identity function id() [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:06 +0000
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:33 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 14:30 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2012-08-24 15:23 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 09:38 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 10:03 +0200
        Re: Objects in Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-08-23 01:19 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:14 +0000
            Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:10 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 23:59 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 15:20 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:24 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:03 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:34 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:04 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2012-08-22 15:03 +0000
  Re: Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 08:25 -0700
    Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 01:47 +1000
    Re: Objects in Python Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-22 11:51 -0400
    Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 11:29 -0600

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