Re: Objects in Python

Date	2012-08-23 12:17 -0500
From	Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>
Subject	Re: Objects in Python
References	(3 earlier) <gsSdnaYuqqabhqjNnZ2dnUVZ8jmdnZ2d@bt.com> <87d32i1ntc.fsf@benfinney.id.au> <mailman.3693.1345697563.4697.python-list@python.org> <5035d3e4$0$1645$c3e8da3$76491128@news.astraweb.com> <qotpq6irnjn.fsf@ruuvi.it.helsinki.fi>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
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[I have some things to say to a few people so I'm just putting it all in
one rather than clutter up your email box even more.]

On 08/23/2012 12:33 AM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> [Snip discussion on names vs variables]
>
> Does that sort things out, or just make things more confusing?
>
> ChrisA

I... am not sure. I don't think it really told me anything new. I think
it's just that I don't think that any of the distinctions (nor all of
them put together) makes it worthwhile to reject a perfectly good term
in common use just because the behavior of Python variables is a bit
different from the behavior of variables in *some* other languages.

For instance, I don't get annoyed that both Java and Python use the
terms "class" and "object" for similar but still very different things.
And while I think it's worth saying "Python classes and objects are
rather different from Java's", I definitely *wouldn't* say "Python
classes aren't really classes" -- even though (I assert) Python classes
are *far* further from Simula-style (/Java/C++) classes than Python
variables are from Java variables.

On 08/23/2012 03:59 AM, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
> I would also avoid any distinction between an object and a
> "reference" to an object, except as an implementation detail. It's not
> helpful.

Whaaaa....?

How would you describe it then? To me, that distinction is absolutely
*fundamental* to understanding how languages like Python/Scheme/Java
work, because it tells you how to reason about aliasing behavior in an
unconvoluted way (which is essential to understanding how they work).

How would *you* suggest dealing with that issue?

On 08/23/2012 09:43 AM, Jerry Hill wrote:
> On Thu, Aug 23, 2012 at 4:59 AM, Jussi Piitulainen wrote:
>> I don't get it either. To me the python-has-no-variables campaigners
>> seem confused. As far as I can see, Python can be seen in terms of
>> variables bound to (locations containing) values perfectly well, in a
>> way that should be quite familiar to people who come from Java (or
>> Lisp, Scheme like me).
>
> ...
>
> Perhaps those that come from the Java and Lisp world don't find the
> name/value paradigm as helpful.  Still, it seems silly to excoriate
> people on the list for trying to explain python fundamentals in
> several different ways.  Sometimes explaining the same idea in
> different words helps people understand the concept better.

I agree with this, and I'm happy that people found it useful.

*However*, this thread wasn't really prompted by someone just trying to
explain variables in different terms -- it was prompted by one of the
many comments you see from time-to-time that "Python doesn't have
variables – not as C or Java programmers would understand the term".
That's a different than saying "here's another way of looking at Python
variables", and that instance is even toned down compared to a lot of
the instances you'll find (which will often omit the qualification at
the end).

To me, saying "here's an alternative way to look at variables" is great,
but saying "Python doesn't have variables" is, IMO, at least as silly as
what Jussi said. To me, dancing around the issue just leads to more
confusing terminology and makes things worse.

(And this is reinforced by the fact that neither I nor Google seems to
have really seen "Python doesn't have classes" ever used, when that
statement is at least as true as "Python doesn't have variables".)

Evan

Thread

Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 07:13 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 10:31 -0400
  Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-22 17:31 +0300
  Re: Objects in Python Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-22 16:36 +0200
  Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 15:59 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 16:58 +0100
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:10 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:30 +0100
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:06 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:07 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-22 13:01 -0400
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:46 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 12:15 -0600
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:03 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:02 +1000
              Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:11 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:26 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 20:02 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0600
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 22:43 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-25 23:14 -0700
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:23 +0100
        Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 14:03 -0500
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:45 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 21:31 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 21:46 +0100
              Methods versus functions [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:07 +0000
            Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 16:31 -0500
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 10:19 +0100
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 11:44 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 18:56 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 09:58 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 18:10 -0600
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 23:49 -0500
            Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 06:55 +0000
              Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-23 11:59 +0300
                Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-23 12:28 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:43 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 17:56 +0000
                Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 14:22 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 10:02 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 02:05 +0000
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-25 15:24 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 08:00 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 03:04 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 16:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 09:55 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:23 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 12:01 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 15:56 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 09:27 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 20:43 -0400
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:25 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 09:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 09:49 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:52 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:54 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 10:01 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-23 13:17 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:16 +1000
            Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-23 20:36 -0400
              Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 11:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 20:17 -0700
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-24 04:14 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:00 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-24 13:27 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 05:18 +1000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:45 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:58 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 14:18 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:54 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 22:47 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 10:02 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:14 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-26 16:12 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 23:29 +0000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 16:22 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 12:02 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-26 15:02 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:05 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 09:41 -0400
              Identity function id() [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:06 +0000
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:33 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 14:30 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2012-08-24 15:23 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 09:38 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 10:03 +0200
        Re: Objects in Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-08-23 01:19 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:14 +0000
            Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:10 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 23:59 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 15:20 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:24 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:03 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:34 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:04 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2012-08-22 15:03 +0000
  Re: Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 08:25 -0700
    Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 01:47 +1000
    Re: Objects in Python Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-22 11:51 -0400
    Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 11:29 -0600

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