Re: Re: Objects in Python

Date	2012-08-22 14:03 -0500
From	Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu>
Subject	Re: Re: Objects in Python
References	<18409992-1e28-4721-8e64-60c69668da4e@googlegroups.com> <w7adnXiWqoJSbqnNnZ2dnUVZ7o2dnZ2d@bt.com> <mailman.3668.1345654939.4697.python-list@python.org> <gsSdnaYuqqabhqjNnZ2dnUVZ8jmdnZ2d@bt.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
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On 08/22/2012 12:46 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> If you can show me a 'type' that cannot be assigned to
> 
> a
> 
> in the same scope then I would be most interested to know, I haven't
> found one yet.

As other people have said, you've just pointed out the difference
between static typing and dynamic typing -- and how the former types
variables (or "names") and the latter types objects. I just have a few
things to add to your post and others.

First, from some point of view, you're correct. From a type theory point
of view "dynamically typed" is an oxymoron, because *by definition*
(from this point of view) types are a property of variables (and
expressions). For example, Ben Pierce says (in "Types and Programming
Languages"):

  The word "static" is sometimes added explicitly...to distinguish
  the sorts of compile-time analyses we are considering here from the
  dynamic or latent typing found in languages such as Scheme, where
  run-time type tags are used to distinguish different kinds of
  structures in the heap. Terms like "dynamically typed" are arguably
  misnomers and should probably be replaced by "dynamically checked,"
  but the usage is standard.

(And the usage is standard because it's just really useful to be able to
say "dynamically-typed" instead of "uni-typed with runtime checks of
things that act like types". (I don't think Pierce's "dynamically
checked" is specific enough. :-))

Second, this concept isn't *so* unfamiliar to you. If I give you the
following Java code:

  void foo(Object o) { ... }

and ask what type 'o' is, there are kind of two answers. The first is
that 'o' is an 'Object'. But you can't make an Object -- that's an
abstract class. (IIRC. If it's not then just bear with me; you get the
idea. :-)) So from a strictly static type-theory point of view, 'foo' is
unusable because it takes a type which you can never create. But of
course that's not the case, because in actual Java 'o' has some dynamic
type which is a subclass of 'Object'.

Though I'm sure this statement will be *really* popular with this list
</sarcasm>, if it puts your mind at ease a little, you can imagine that
there are no primitive types and Python names all have type 'Object',
but that you can refer to the functions in an object's dynamic type
without explicitly downcasting. (The analogy isn't perfect.)

On 08/22/2012 01:15 PM, Ian Kelly wrote:
> The classic example of weak typing is concatenation of strings and
> numbers, e.g. ("abc" + 123).  Weakly typed languages like JavaScript
> will implicitly coerce the number to a string and perform the
> concatenation.  Strongly typed languages like Python will raise a
> TypeError instead.

I would also say don't get *too* caught up in categorizing everything
into "strong" and "weak"; that's a spectrum, and where things fall is a
lot more interesting than just "here or there". Really it's even more
complex than just a linear spectrum -- Language A can be stronger than
Language B in one respect but weaker in another.

In particular, it's possible to have rather stronger typing than Python
(especially with respect to Booleans, but in some other respects as well).

Evan

Thread

Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 07:13 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python Joel Goldstick <joel.goldstick@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 10:31 -0400
  Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-22 17:31 +0300
  Re: Objects in Python Peter Otten <__peter__@web.de> - 2012-08-22 16:36 +0200
  Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 15:59 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 16:58 +0100
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:10 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:30 +0100
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:06 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:07 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-22 13:01 -0400
      Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 18:46 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 12:15 -0600
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:03 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:02 +1000
              Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:11 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:26 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 20:02 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0600
                Re: Objects in Python Jan Kuiken <jan.kuiken@quicknet.nl> - 2012-08-23 22:43 +0200
                Re: Objects in Python 88888 Dihedral <dihedral88888@googlemail.com> - 2012-08-25 23:14 -0700
        Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 19:23 +0100
        Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 14:03 -0500
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 20:45 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-22 21:31 +0100
            Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 21:46 +0100
              Methods versus functions [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:07 +0000
            Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 16:31 -0500
              Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 10:19 +0100
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 11:44 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 18:56 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 09:58 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 18:10 -0600
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-22 23:49 -0500
            Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 06:55 +0000
              Re: Objects in Python Jussi Piitulainen <jpiitula@ling.helsinki.fi> - 2012-08-23 11:59 +0300
                Re: Objects in Python MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2012-08-23 12:28 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Jerry Hill <malaclypse2@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:43 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 12:17 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 17:56 +0000
                Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-23 14:22 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 10:02 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 02:05 +0000
                Re: Variables vs names Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-25 15:24 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 08:00 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-25 03:04 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 16:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 09:55 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 20:23 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-25 12:01 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 15:56 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 09:27 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-25 20:43 -0400
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:25 -0500
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 09:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 09:49 +1000
                Re: Variables vs names [was: Objects in Python] Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:52 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 19:54 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 10:01 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-08-23 13:17 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:16 +1000
            Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-23 20:36 -0400
              Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-24 11:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 20:17 -0700
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-24 04:14 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:00 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2012-08-24 13:27 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-25 05:18 +1000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Evan Driscoll <driscoll@cs.wisc.edu> - 2012-08-26 00:45 -0500
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 13:43 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:58 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 14:18 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:54 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 22:47 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 10:02 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:14 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-26 16:12 -0400
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 23:29 +0000
                Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 16:22 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-26 12:02 +0000
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-26 23:34 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-26 15:02 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-27 00:05 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2012-08-26 09:41 -0400
              Identity function id() [was Re: Objects in Python] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-24 10:06 +0000
          Re: Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 15:33 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-08-23 14:30 -0400
            Re: Objects in Python Alexander Blinne <news@blinne.net> - 2012-08-24 15:23 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 09:38 +0200
          Re: Objects in Python Antoon Pardon <antoon.pardon@rece.vub.ac.be> - 2012-08-24 10:03 +0200
        Re: Objects in Python Walter Hurry <walterhurry@lavabit.com> - 2012-08-23 01:19 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:14 +0000
            Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:10 +0100
              Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-23 23:59 +1000
                Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 15:20 +0100
                Re: Objects in Python Ben Finney <ben+python@benfinney.id.au> - 2012-08-24 00:24 +1000
          Re: Objects in Python lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-23 09:03 +0100
        Re: Objects in Python Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-08-23 04:34 +0000
          Re: Objects in Python rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 10:04 -0700
  Re: Objects in Python John Gordon <gordon@panix.com> - 2012-08-22 15:03 +0000
  Re: Objects in Python shaun <shaun.wiseman91@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 08:25 -0700
    Re: Objects in Python Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-08-23 01:47 +1000
    Re: Objects in Python Dave Angel <d@davea.name> - 2012-08-22 11:51 -0400
    Re: Objects in Python Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-08-22 17:13 +0100
    Re: Objects in Python Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-08-22 11:29 -0600

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