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Groups > comp.lang.python > #39987
| From | Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> |
|---|---|
| Subject | Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? |
| Date | 2013-02-26 13:43 -0500 |
| References | <512cb0a0$0$30001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> |
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
| Message-ID | <mailman.2563.1361904255.2939.python-list@python.org> (permalink) |
On 2/26/2013 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > One week ago, "JoePie91" wrote a blog post challenging the Python > community and the state of Python documentation, titled: > > "The Python documentation is bad, and you should feel bad". > > http://joepie91.wordpress.com/2013/02/19/the-python-documentation-is-bad- > and-you-should-feel-bad/ To me, this is a lying troll rant worth less than most of RantingRick's posts. > It is valuable to contrast and compare the PHP and Python docs: > > http://php.net/manual/en/index.php > http://www.python.org/doc/ The contrast has been discussed before on python-list and even pydev. To repeat: in my opinion, and that of most core developers, the python docs are superior. It is Joe's lie to equate difference of opinion with indifference. Python has a nice Tutorial for beginners. It is an integral part of the doc set. To ignore that (and the indexes) in discussing the usability of Python docs by beginners is to lie. (If beginners who actually read the tutorial have problems with particular paragraphs, improvements can be and have been made.) Examples: Once startup is explained, the rest of the tutorial is about half text and half example. I think that is a good balance. Anyone who reads the tutorial knows how to call a function. I think doubling the size of the Library *Reference* with trivial, repetitive examples like: >>> len([1,2,3]) 3 would be a negative for reference use*. Python has a super-duper interactive mode for trying things like this oneself, and that teaches *better* than just reading the same thing. (And if the tutorial never discusses len() and its generic use for all concrete collections, it should.) * Anyone who disagrees can go to http://www.lightbird.net/py-by-example/builtin-functions.html where you can find that and other examples for builtins and about 30 modules. Actually, I can imagine that some beginners would benefit from this page as an extension of the tutorial. This site may be an outcome of the previous discussion, which more or less ended with the fact that anyone who wanted to produce php-style Python docs was free to do so. Searching: it is true that the Python docs are written for being read by people, rather than by search engines#. It has a hand-crafted index (yes, it still needs patches) that will get you most places, especially for anyone who has read the tutorial to get the basics. For 'length of a list' one can find 'len() (built-in function)' and find that 'len' indeed mean length and, more generally, size. # Anyone who wants to could develop an seo-optimized python-by-function website that goes into exquisite details for each function on a separate page. len(collection) => count Built-in function len() allows one to find the * length or size of a list * length or size of a tuple * length or size of an array * length or size of a string * length or size of a bytes * length or size of a bytearray * length or size of a memoryview * size of a set * size of a frozenset * size of a dict or dictionary * size of dict view * size of user-defined collecton class instances Returns 0 for empty collections. Raises TypeError for inputs that are not collections or that do not support len() calls, because they do not have a properly written .__len__ methods. If I were involved, I would *not* junk-up such pages with random user posts. Anything worth being added should be incorporated into the entry itself. -- Terry Jan Reedy
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Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 12:54 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 00:20 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-26 08:56 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 01:26 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 15:26 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-26 17:48 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-27 03:02 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:15 -0400
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 09:15 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 16:19 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:55 -0600
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 17:54 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-26 12:10 -0600
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 18:41 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? nn <pruebauno@latinmail.com> - 2013-02-26 11:00 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? emile <emile@fenx.com> - 2013-02-26 16:36 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Adam W." <AWasilenko@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 08:38 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 13:52 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 20:48 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 19:13 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 15:25 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 18:05 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 21:21 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 13:44 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 19:43 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 20:04 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:21 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:18 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:53 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:57 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 17:31 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 10:28 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-01 07:41 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:05 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jake Angulo <jake.angulo@gmail.com> - 2013-03-04 10:47 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:43 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-06 03:12 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:10 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:50 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:51 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-06 03:38 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:31 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-09 14:45 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-06 11:48 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 18:50 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 16:47 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:06 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-03-06 17:28 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:31 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:28 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:57 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:12 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:48 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 13:16 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Michael Ross" <gmx@ross.cx> - 2013-03-07 03:04 +0100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 20:52 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:41 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 20:12 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-09 01:22 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 20:26 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 13:43 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 17:17 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-28 01:39 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-27 21:27 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 13:58 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 12:18 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-26 21:26 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:17 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:15 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 12:31 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 21:00 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 18:06 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 22:09 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 23:45 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-27 09:47 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:17 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:22 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 14:59 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-27 17:43 -0500
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 15:20 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-28 01:05 +0000
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 21:36 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 18:26 -0800
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:59 -0700
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:21 +1100
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? << No! Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2013-03-03 16:28 -0600
Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-04 08:59 -0800
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