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Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?

References <512cb0a0$0$30001$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
From Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com>
Date 2013-02-26 09:15 -0500
Subject Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs?
Newsgroups comp.lang.python
Message-ID <mailman.2545.1361888184.2939.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 7:54 AM, Steven D'Aprano
<steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> wrote:
> There's no doubt that one of PHP's strengths, perhaps its biggest
> strength, is the good state of documentation. But should we feel bad
> about Python's docs? I don't think that either the Python documentation
> or community is as bad as JoePie91 suggests.

Who's we? As a user of Python I feel no responsibility for the state
of Python's documentation ;)

Do I feel like it could be improved? Sure. I've never understood why
Python doesn't document information about possible errors inside the
function documentations. Instead, you have to read the exception
documentation to find out when it might be raised, and then the exact
error conditions aren't always clearly specified at all.

My understanding from talking to members of the development team has
been that this is by design, so I've of course never submitted a
patch.

> (Well, I won't speak for the
> people on Freenode's #python. It took me approximately three minutes to
> be banned from there, with no warning or explanation.)

I'm an op in #python. If you can provide logs or a nickname I could
look into this with whoever banned you (if the ban hasn't expired
already!) However, you should appreciate that, having only been there
for three minutes, you may not have understood the expectations
#python sets on tone or subject matter. It is markedly more strict
than comp.lang.python. Also, bans aren't explained (except possibly in
the kickban message, but that's rare) unless you ask about them. It's
very easy to infer a reason from context, explanations take time (if
you explain before the ban), and PMs to a just-banned person never go
well (if you explain after the ban).


As to whether or not JoePie91's observations are correct for
#python... all the observations would apply to #python except for the
ostrich and source-reading complaints, albeit viewed through a very
negative light. I would disagree with his explanations for the reasons
for things, and his ranking of the importance of things.

IMHO the most important flaw in #python is that it's unwelcoming to
new programmers, but I can't think of a decent way to fix that.
Tutoring new programmers takes a huge amount of time. At the moment I
figure that the best we can hope to do is identify them before we
confuse the hell out of them by telling them to use classes,
generators, higher order functions, and other intermediate to advanced
topics. Unfortunately, we're not good at this. (Yet? :)


By the way, interestingly enough, JoePie91 was in #python discussing
his blog post for a bit. It was a fun conversation.

-- Devin

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Thread

Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 12:54 +0000
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 00:20 +1100
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-26 08:56 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 01:26 +1100
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-26 15:26 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? MRAB <python@mrabarnett.plus.com> - 2013-02-26 17:48 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-27 03:02 +0000
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Zero Piraeus <schesis@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:15 -0400
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 09:15 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 16:19 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 10:55 -0600
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 17:54 +0000
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-02-26 12:10 -0600
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? notbob <notbob@nothome.com> - 2013-02-26 18:41 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? nn <pruebauno@latinmail.com> - 2013-02-26 11:00 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? emile <emile@fenx.com> - 2013-02-26 16:36 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Adam W." <AWasilenko@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 08:38 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 13:52 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 20:48 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 19:13 -0800
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 15:25 -0800
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 18:05 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 21:21 -0500
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 13:44 +1100
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 19:43 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 20:04 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:21 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:18 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 20:53 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:57 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 17:31 +1100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 10:28 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-01 07:41 +1100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:05 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jake Angulo <jake.angulo@gmail.com> - 2013-03-04 10:47 +1100
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:43 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-03-06 03:12 +0000
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:10 -0800
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:50 -0800
          Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-05 17:51 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-03-06 03:38 +0000
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 19:31 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-09 14:45 +1100
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-06 11:48 -0800
            Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 18:50 -0500
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 16:47 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:06 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Kaynor <ckaynor@zindagigames.com> - 2013-03-06 17:28 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 17:31 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:28 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:57 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:12 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 19:48 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-03-07 13:16 +1100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? "Michael Ross" <gmx@ross.cx> - 2013-03-07 03:04 +0100
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-06 20:52 -0500
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-03-06 18:41 -0800
              Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Bob Hanson <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-03-08 20:12 -0800
                Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-03-09 01:22 -0500
        Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Roy Smith <roy@panix.com> - 2013-02-27 20:26 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 13:43 -0500
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 17:17 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-28 01:39 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-27 21:27 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 13:58 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 12:18 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rotwang <sg552@hotmail.co.uk> - 2013-02-26 21:26 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Swails <jason.swails@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:17 -0500
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:22 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Janssen <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2013-02-26 17:15 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 12:31 +1100
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-02-26 21:00 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-02-26 18:06 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 22:09 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-26 23:45 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-02-27 09:47 +0000
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:17 +0000
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Antoine Pitrou <solipsis@pitrou.net> - 2013-02-27 13:22 +0000
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 14:59 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Mitya Sirenef <msirenef@lightbird.net> - 2013-02-27 17:43 -0500
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 15:20 -0800
    Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-02-28 01:05 +0000
      Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rurpy@yahoo.com - 2013-02-27 21:36 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? llanitedave <llanitedave@veawb.coop> - 2013-02-27 18:26 -0800
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Jason Friedman <jsf80238@gmail.com> - 2013-02-27 21:59 -0700
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2013-02-28 16:21 +1100
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? << No! Tony the Tiger <tony@tiger.invalid> - 2013-03-03 16:28 -0600
  Re: Do you feel bad because of the Python docs? rh <richard_hubbe11@lavabit.com> - 2013-03-04 08:59 -0800

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