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Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements

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On Tue, Jul 17, 2012 at 11:57 AM, Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> wrote:
> I could do:
>
> if has_message:
>         send('{command} {args} :{message}')
> else:
>         send('{command} {args}')
>
> but then I'd have to make sure has_message stays accurate since message
> won't necessarily be. Or maybe I could leave message undefined and catch
> the appropriate exception. However, using None is the cleanest and most
> obvious.
>
> I know Rick likes to troll, but I do agree with him that "if something:"
> for arbitrary objects can be ambiguous or confusing. I don't think
> if/while must have True or False, but not every object has an obvious
> truth value.

Using None when '' is a valid token is the right thing to do (see
also, for instance, SQL's NULL, which is often used the same way). And
then you have gone away from the language's idea of whether a string
is truthy or not, so you get explicit:

if message is not None:
   send('{command} {args} :{message}')

Easy! Or if the language went the other way ("all strings are true"),
it would be the other way around, you'd use "if message!=''" for the
other case. It's not a difficult problem.

Carry on bikeshedding. :)

ChrisA

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Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 03:34 -0500
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-15 10:56 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 10:19 -0600
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:01 -0600
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 07:53 +1000
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 18:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 11:51 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:31 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 17:57 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-17 00:44 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:15 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:58 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:03 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 21:53 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:57 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:18 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:25 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 05:38 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:58 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 13:05 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 20:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:20 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:03 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:00 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:27 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 07:52 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:26 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:17 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 07:30 +0100
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 18:03 +0000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:01 +0300
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 18:45 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:41 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 12:58 +1000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 08:05 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:14 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:02 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:38 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-16 13:28 -0400
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:12 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:33 -0500
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 13:54 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 00:43 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:57 -0500
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:39 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:19 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 03:23 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:35 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:32 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:43 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:59 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-17 13:57 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-17 05:35 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 12:13 +1000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:16 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:45 -0600
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:09 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:28 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:22 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:11 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 21:18 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 14:24 +1000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:47 +0000
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-07-17 00:26 -0700

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