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Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements

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On Mon, 16 Jul 2012 20:22:18 -0500, Andrew Berg wrote:

> On 7/15/2012 3:28 PM, Terry Reedy wrote:
>> Because everything does (or should).
> I can see how truth testing for empty values is convenient, but perhaps
> objects should only have a truth value if explicitly given one -
> particularly in cases where such a value wouldn't be obvious or the
> obvious value isn't the actual one:

You have run into Python's default behaviour: objects are treated as 
something by default. If you want them to represent nothing, you have to 
explicitly code that case.

py> o = object()
py> bool(o)
True

Yet again, thinking about something versus nothing instead of true/false 
makes the behaviour both obvious and correct: of course an object should 
be treated as something (true-like) rather than nothing (false-like) by 
default, it's an *object* is it not?

If you want your type to implement non-default semantics, such as 
container semantics, then you need to code it.


>>>> c = types.SimpleNamespace()
>>>> if c: print('c')
> ...
> c
>>>> c.__dict__
> {}
> 
> Would it not be reasonable to expect an empty namespace to have a truth
> value of False since [] and friends do? It's a bit of a gray area for an
> object defined by "class C: pass", but this is *specifically intended*
> to be a namespace. Why should things like functions or exceptions have
> truth values?

And this is a good life-lesson that any class called "SimpleFoo" will not 
stay simple for long.

If you are right that SimpleNamespace should be treated as a container, 
then it should implement container semantics. Since it doesn't, that is 
either:

1) a bug; or
2) a triumph of laziness over correctness

I imagine though that the Python dev's answer will basically be #2: "it 
isn't a container, it just behaves a little bit like a container, except 
when it doesn't" kinda thing. But feel free to report it as a bug and see 
what happens.

(This is not *entirely* wrong, because SimpleNamespace certainly doesn't 
*claim* to be a container, nor does it expose the full container API. But 
it should, even if that means it is no longer quite so simple.)



-- 
Steven

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Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 03:34 -0500
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-15 10:56 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 10:19 -0600
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:01 -0600
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 07:53 +1000
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 18:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 11:51 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:31 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 17:57 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-17 00:44 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:15 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:58 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:03 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 21:53 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:57 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:18 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:25 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 05:38 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:58 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 13:05 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 20:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:20 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:03 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:00 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:27 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 07:52 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:26 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:17 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 07:30 +0100
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 18:03 +0000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:01 +0300
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 18:45 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:41 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 12:58 +1000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 08:05 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:14 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:02 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:38 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-16 13:28 -0400
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:12 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:33 -0500
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 13:54 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 00:43 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:57 -0500
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:39 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:19 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 03:23 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:35 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:32 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:43 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:59 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-17 13:57 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-17 05:35 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 12:13 +1000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:16 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:45 -0600
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:09 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:28 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:22 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:11 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 21:18 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 14:24 +1000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:47 +0000
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-07-17 00:26 -0700

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