Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
References	<mailman.2132.1342341291.4697.python-list@python.org> <5002a1f9$0$29995$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.2141.1342369188.4697.python-list@python.org> <7b027612-a07e-40f9-8ad2-3e95c5440482@googlegroups.com> <mailman.2148.1342375350.4697.python-list@python.org>
Subject	Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements
From	Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com>
Message-ID	<mailman.2150.1342378612.4697.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Sunday, July 15, 2012 1:01:58 PM UTC-5, Ian wrote:

> So now instead of having to understand how "if" handles arbitrary
> values, we have to understand how "bool" handles arbitrary values.
> How is that an improvement?

Because we are keeping the condition consistent. We are not relying on implicit resolution of an object's value based on some dark, esoteric and inconsistent rules that defy all normal logic.

> What should "if" do if presented a value that isn't True or False?
> Raise a TypeError?

YES! Because IT IS the author's responsibility to present a condition that evaluates to either True or False. Anything else would be ridiculously inconsistent.

> Next thing we know, people get so used to wrapping everything they
> present to "if" in a "bool()" call, that they start writing silly
> things like "if bool(x == 7)" and "if bool(isinstance(x, int))".  

We cannot prevent morons from doing stupid things. "x==7" IS an explicit statement that evaluates to either True or False. Likewise, isinstance(obj, type) is a function that evaluates to either True or False. Wrapping either example in a bool call is redundant and only obfuscates the meaning. True equals True and False equal False. Why do you need to test that truth?

The only time you will be forced to use the bool is when you are NOT using rich comparisons or NOT using truth testing functions in a condition. The following require NO bool function:

obj == obj -> bool
obj != obj -> bool
obj > obj -> bool
obj < obj -> bool
obj >= obj -> bool
obj <= obj -> bool
isinstance(obj, type) -> bool
callable(obj) -> bool
hasattr(obj, name) -> bool
issubclass(obj, name) -> bool
..along with any function that returns a bool

Whereas: 
"if obj" -> Some esoteric semantics that defies all logic!

> Why?
> Because it's faster and easier to automatically wrap the value in
> "bool" than it is to put in the effort to verify that the value will
> always be a bool to begin with in order to avoid a useless and
> annoying exception.  

No, because we want our code to be EXPLICIT and consistent! Remember, writing obfuscated code is easy, however, interpreting obfuscated code is difficult! A good measure of your programming skill is to see how easily your code is read by the majority. 

 """If it's difficult to explain, it's probably a bad idea""". 

"if blah" is difficult to explain, whereas "if bool(blah)" is not.   

> At the point that happens, the "bool()" is
> effectively just part of the if syntax, and we're back to where we
> started.

That's a ridiculous conclusion. See points above^^^

Thread

Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 03:34 -0500
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-15 10:56 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 10:19 -0600
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:01 -0600
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 07:53 +1000
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 18:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 11:51 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:31 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 17:57 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-17 00:44 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:15 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:58 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:03 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 21:53 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:57 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:18 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:25 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Devin Jeanpierre <jeanpierreda@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 05:38 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:58 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 13:05 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 20:21 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 04:20 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 22:03 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:00 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 00:27 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 07:52 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:26 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-16 23:17 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-07-16 07:30 +0100
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Albert van der Horst <albert@spenarnc.xs4all.nl> - 2012-07-16 18:03 +0000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:56 -0700
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 16:01 +0300
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements rusi <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 18:45 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Rick Johnson <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 09:50 -0700
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 19:41 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 12:58 +1000
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 08:05 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 11:13 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 06:14 +0000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:02 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-16 02:38 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2012-07-16 13:28 -0400
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:12 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 01:13 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 15:33 -0500
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-16 13:54 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 00:43 +0000
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:57 -0500
              Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:39 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 00:19 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 07:08 +0000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 03:23 -0500
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements alex23 <wuwei23@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:35 -0700
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 18:32 +1000
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:43 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Laszlo Nagy <gandalf@shopzeus.com> - 2012-07-17 14:59 +0200
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-17 13:57 -0400
                Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2012-07-17 05:35 -0700
            Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 12:13 +1000
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 12:16 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2012-07-15 11:45 -0600
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:09 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2012-07-15 16:28 -0400
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 20:22 -0500
      Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:11 +0000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Ranting Rick <rantingrickjohnson@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 21:18 -0700
          Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2012-07-17 14:24 +1000
        Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Andrew Berg <bahamutzero8825@gmail.com> - 2012-07-16 23:44 -0500
    Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2012-07-17 04:47 +0000
  Re: Implicit conversion to boolean in if and while statements John Nagle <nagle@animats.com> - 2012-07-17 00:26 -0700

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