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Groups > comp.lang.python > #72704
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.python |
|---|---|
| Date | 2014-06-05 06:37 -0700 |
| References | (11 earlier) <mailman.10625.1401805111.18130.python-list@python.org> <538f1a61$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <bva1ccFdr03U1@mid.individual.net> <53902bb1$0$11109$c3e8da3@news.astraweb.com> <87wqcvu20h.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> |
| Message-ID | <7b3543f6-6f62-49c5-abdc-e2783fd6d629@googlegroups.com> (permalink) |
| Subject | Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection |
| From | Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> |
On Thursday, June 5, 2014 3:11:34 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > But the idea of having standard input and standard output in the first > > place comes about because they are useful for the console. > I doubt that. Classic programs take input and produce output. Standard > input and output are the default input and output. The textbook Pascal > programs started: > program myprogram(input, output); > > If a system had no command line interface (hence no consoles), why > > would you bother with a *standard* input file and output file that are > > never used? > Because programs are supposed to do useful work. They consume input and > produce output. That concept is older than computers themselves and is > used to define things like computation, algorithm, halting etc. > > On Thu, 05 Jun 2014 14:01:50 +1200, Gregory Ewing wrote: > >> But we were talking about encodings, and whether stdin and stdout > >> should be text or binary by default. Well, one of the design > >> principles behind unix is to make use of plain text wherever > >> possible. > No, one of the design principles behind unix is that all data is bytes: > memory, files, devices, sockets, pathnames. Yes, the > ASCII-is-good-for-everybody assumption has been there since the > beginning, but Python will not be able to hide the fact that there is no > text data (in the Python sense). There are only bytes. > UTF-8 beautifully gives text a second-class citizenship in unix/linux. > It will never be granted first-class citizenship, though. > >> As a result, most unix programs, most of the time, deal with text on > >> stdin and stdout. So, it makes sense for them to be text by default. > >> And wherever there's text, there needs to be an encoding. This is > >> true whether a console is involved or not. > > Agreed. > Disagreed strongly. > tcpdump -s 0 -w - >error.pcap > tar zxf - <python.tar.gz > sha1sum <smile.jpg > base64 -d <a.dat >a.exe > wget ftp://micorsops.com/something.avi -O - | mplayer -cache 8192 - > Unfortunately, the text/binary dichotomy breaks a beautiful principle in > Python as well. In numerous contexts, any file-like object will be > valid. Now there is no file-like object. Instead, you have > text-file-like objects and binary-file-like objects, which require > special attention since some operate on strings while others operate on > bytes. Pascal is for building pyramids — imposing, breathtaking, static structures built by armies pushing heavy blocks into place. — Alan Perlis Lisp is like a ball of mud. Add more and it's still a ball of mud — it still looks like Lisp. — Guy Steele There are two fundamental outlooks in computer science — structuring and universality. And they pull in opposite directions. Universality happens when a data-structure can hold everything — a universal data structure. Some of the most significant advances in CS come from a universalist vision: - von Neumann machine storing data+code in memory - Turing-tape able to store arbitrary turing machines (∴ universal TM) - Lisp program ≡ Lisp data - Stream of byte can handle/represent everything in Unix — memory, files, devices, sockets, pathnames. However after the allurement of universality is over, the realization dawns that we have a mess — Lisp is a 'mud-ball'. At which point people start needing to make distinctions — code and data, different data-structures, type-systems etc. IOW imposing structure on the mud-ball. Taking a broad view, while structuring trades the power for order, it is universality that adds significant power. Python is not as universal as Lisp — it has no homoiconicity. But it is close enough in that any variable/data-structure can contain any value. What Marko is saying is that by imposing the structuring of unicode on the outside (Unix) world of text=byte, significant power is lost. This is also Armin's crib. How significant that loss is, is yet to be seen…
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Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-31 17:10 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-31 22:55 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-01 02:26 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:43 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 08:54 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 01:14 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 12:23 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 19:46 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-06-02 07:45 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:02 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:14 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-02 12:10 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-03 16:34 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 02:43 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-02 17:34 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-03 17:16 +1200
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 02:21 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-03 15:18 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-04 13:08 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-05 14:01 +1200
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 10:16 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 17:30 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 11:05 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 18:36 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:53 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-05 05:43 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:50 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 23:21 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 18:09 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:13 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:30 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:39 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 22:08 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-05 20:47 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 08:34 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:41 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:37 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 17:45 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 15:33 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 02:12 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 09:54 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:36 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 19:52 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:28 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 15:35 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 08:52 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:11 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 13:20 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:32 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 12:03 +0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 16:37 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:16 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 01:50 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 17:17 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:32 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 07:40 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:14 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 11:16 -0600
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:11 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 21:30 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:21 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 12:15 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 16:00 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection rurpy@yahoo.com - 2014-06-07 21:34 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 06:24 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 17:10 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:02 -0600
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 18:32 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:50 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:02 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:13 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:26 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 11:03 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:18 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 08:18 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 15:57 +0000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:21 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 02:48 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:04 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:12 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:11 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:16 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:18 +0300
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-06-06 13:33 -0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:25 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:44 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:48 -0700
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-06 12:56 +0100
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:49 +0400
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 00:25 +1000
Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 14:22 -0400
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