Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection

References	<mailman.10509.1401552642.18130.python-list@python.org> <538a8f48$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com> <mailman.10531.1401663275.18130.python-list@python.org> <538bcfff$0$29978$c3e8da3$5496439d@news.astraweb.com>
Date	2014-06-02 12:23 +1000
Subject	Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection
From	Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.10534.1401676125.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On 2 June 2014 11:14, Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info>
wrote:

> On Mon, 02 Jun 2014 08:54:33 +1000, Tim Delaney wrote:
> > I'm currently working on a product that interacts with lots of other
> > products. These other products can be using any encoding - but most of
> > the functions that interact with I/O assume the system default encoding
> > of the machine that is collecting the data. The product has been in
> > production for nearly a decade, so there's a lot of pushback against
> > changes deep in the code for fear that it will break working systems.
> > The fact that they are working largely by accident appears to escape
> > them ...
> >
> > FWIW, changing to use iso-latin-1 by default would be the most sensible
> > option (effectively treating everything as bytes), with the option for
> > another encoding if/when more information is known (e.g. there's often a
> > call to return the encoding, and the output of that call is guaranteed
> > to be ASCII).
>
> Python 2 does what you suggest, and it is *broken*. Python 2.7 creates
> moji-bake, while Python 3 gets it right:
>

The purpose of my example was to show a case where no thought was put into
encodings - the assumption was that the system encoding and the remote
system encoding would be the same. This is most definitely not the case a
lot of the time.

I also should have been more clear that *in the particular situation I was
talking about* iso-latin-1 as default would be the right thing to do, not
in the general case. Quite often we won't know the correct encoding until
we've executed a command via ssh - iso-latin-1 will allow us to extract the
info we need (which will generally be 7-bit ASCII) without the possibility
of an invalid encoding. Sure we may get mojibake, but that's better than
the alternative when we don't yet know the correct encoding.

> Latin-1 is one of those legacy encodings which needs to die, not to be
> entrenched as the default. My terminal uses UTF-8 by default (as it
> should), and if I use the terminal to input "δжç", Python ought to see
> what I input, not Latin-1 moji-bake.
>

For some purposes, there needs to be a way to treat an arbitrary stream of
bytes as an arbitrary stream of 8-bit characters. iso-latin-1 is a
convenient way to do that. It's not the only way, but settling on it and
being consistent is better than not having a way.

Tim Delaney

Thread

Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-31 17:10 +0100
  Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-31 22:55 +0300
  Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-01 02:26 +0000
    Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:43 +1000
    Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 08:54 +1000
      Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 01:14 +0000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 12:23 +1000
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 19:46 -0700
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-06-02 07:45 +0000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:02 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:14 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-02 12:10 +0100
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-03 16:34 +0000
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 02:43 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-02 17:34 -0400
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-03 17:16 +1200
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 02:21 -0400
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-03 15:18 +0100
              Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-04 13:08 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-05 14:01 +1200
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 10:16 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 17:30 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 11:05 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 18:36 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:53 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-05 05:43 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:50 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 23:21 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 18:09 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:13 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:30 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:39 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 22:08 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-05 20:47 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 08:34 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:41 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:37 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 17:45 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 15:33 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 02:12 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 09:54 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:36 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 19:52 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:28 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 15:35 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 08:52 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:11 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 13:20 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:32 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 12:03 +0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 16:37 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:16 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 01:50 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 17:17 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:32 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 07:40 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:14 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 11:16 -0600
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:11 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 21:30 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:21 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 12:15 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 16:00 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection rurpy@yahoo.com - 2014-06-07 21:34 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 06:24 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 17:10 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:02 -0600
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 18:32 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:50 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:02 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:13 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:26 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:18 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 08:18 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 15:57 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:21 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 02:48 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:04 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:12 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:11 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:16 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:18 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-06-06 13:33 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:25 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:44 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:48 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-06 12:56 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:49 +0400
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 00:25 +1000
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 14:22 -0400

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