Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection

References	(16 earlier) <7b3543f6-6f62-49c5-abdc-e2783fd6d629@googlegroups.com> <87oay7tnxt.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <mailman.10755.1401991925.18130.python-list@python.org> <87tx7z5hvw.fsf@elektro.pacujo.net> <5391C113.5030508@stoneleaf.us>
Date	2014-06-07 01:25 +1000
Subject	Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection
From	Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Message-ID	<mailman.10819.1402068349.18130.python-list@python.org> (permalink)

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On Fri, Jun 6, 2014 at 11:24 PM, Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> wrote:
> On 06/05/2014 11:30 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
>>
>>
>> How text is represented is very different from whether text is a
>> fundamental data type. A fundamental text file is such that ordinary
>> operating system facilities can't see inside the black box (that is,
>> they are *not* encoded as far as the applications go).
>
> Of course they are.  It may be an ASCII-encoding of some flavor or other, or
> something really (to me) strange -- but an encoding is most assuredly in
> affect.

Allow me to explain what I think Marko's getting at here.

In most file systems, a file exists on the disk as a set of sectors of
data, plus some metadata including the file's actual size. When you
ask the OS to read you that file, it goes to the disk, reads those
sectors, truncates the data to the real size, and gives you those
bytes.

It's possible to mount a file as a directory, in which case the
physical representation is very different, but the file still appears
the same. In that case, the OS goes reading some part of the file,
maybe decompresses it, and gives it to you. Same difference. These
files still contain bytes.

A "fundamental text file" would be one where, instead of reading and
writing bytes, you read and write Unicode text. Since the hard disk
still works with sectors and bytes, it'll still be stored as such, but
that's an implementation detail; and you could format your disk UTF-8
or UTF-16 or FSR or anything you like, and the only difference you'd
see is performance.

This could certainly be done, in theory. I don't know how well it'd
fit with any of the popular OSes of today, but it could be done. And
these files would not have an encoding; their on-platter
representations would, but that's purely implementation - the text
that you wrote out and the text that you read in are the same text,
and there's been no encoding visible.

ChrisA

Thread

Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2014-05-31 17:10 +0100
  Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-05-31 22:55 +0300
  Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-01 02:26 +0000
    Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 12:43 +1000
    Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 08:54 +1000
      Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-02 01:14 +0000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 12:23 +1000
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-01 19:46 -0700
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Wolfgang Maier <wolfgang.maier@biologie.uni-freiburg.de> - 2014-06-02 07:45 +0000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:02 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-02 19:14 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-02 12:10 +0100
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-03 16:34 +0000
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 02:43 +1000
        Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-02 17:34 -0400
          Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-03 17:16 +1200
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 02:21 -0400
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-03 15:18 +0100
              Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-04 13:08 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Gregory Ewing <greg.ewing@canterbury.ac.nz> - 2014-06-05 14:01 +1200
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 10:16 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 17:30 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 11:05 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 18:36 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:53 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-05 05:43 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:50 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 23:21 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 18:09 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:13 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:30 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:39 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 22:08 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-05 20:47 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 08:34 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 12:41 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:37 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 17:45 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 15:33 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 02:12 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 09:54 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:36 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 19:52 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:28 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 15:35 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 08:52 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:11 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 13:20 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 20:32 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 12:03 +0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 16:37 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:16 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 01:50 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-05 17:17 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 16:32 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 07:40 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 03:14 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 11:16 -0600
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-05 14:11 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-05 21:30 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-05 23:02 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 02:21 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 12:15 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 16:00 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection rurpy@yahoo.com - 2014-06-07 21:34 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ethan Furman <ethan@stoneleaf.us> - 2014-06-06 06:24 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 17:10 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:02 -0600
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 18:32 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:50 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:02 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:13 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:26 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 11:03 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Denis McMahon <denismfmcmahon@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 21:18 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 08:18 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2014-06-06 15:57 +0000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 09:21 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 02:48 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2014-06-06 10:04 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:12 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:11 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 03:16 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2014-06-06 20:18 +0300
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2014-06-06 13:33 -0400
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-07 01:25 +1000
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:44 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection wxjmfauth@gmail.com - 2014-06-06 08:48 -0700
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Robin Becker <robin@reportlab.com> - 2014-06-06 12:56 +0100
                Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Akira Li <4kir4.1i@gmail.com> - 2014-06-05 06:49 +0400
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2014-06-04 00:25 +1000
            Re: Python 3.2 has some deadly infection Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2014-06-03 14:22 -0400

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