Groups | Search | Server Info | Keyboard shortcuts | Login | Register [http] [https] [nntp] [nntps]

Groups > comp.lang.python > #53760

Re: PEP8 79 char max

Show all headers | View raw

On Thursday, September 5, 2013 10:40:46 PM UTC-5, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Thanks for the comments, and welcome, but I really don't have a clue what 
> the relevance of most of them are.
Real-world Experience.
> > If you are still using equipment that requires 79, then chances are you
> > have/will already gone out of business or are keeping/using said
> > equipment for nostalgic purposes.
> 
> The point is not that there is *equipment* that requires 79 characters 
> per line, but that *reading text* is better with a maximum line length 
> closer to 79 characters than (say) 140 characters. I've just randomly 
> picked up a magazine (less than 50 characters per line) and two books (60 
> and 82 characters per line respectively).
The argument I am suggesting is 79 vs 80.
> The exact max line length picked is not, in and of itself, critical. PEP 
> 
> 8 could have picked 60 characters, or 72, or 77, or 82. 79 characters 
> (plus newline) happens to be a better choice than (say) 77 or 82 for 
> historical reasons: some *old* computer equipment was limited to 79 
> characters (plus newline), and consequently some *new* computer software 
> expects the same convention to be held.
I propose 80 for Zen: Simplicity.
> In a sense, it's a bit like the old urban legend about the width of the 
> Space Shuttle booster rockets being determined by the width of ancient 
> Roman chariots.
Haha. *Gets a Laugh*
> http://www.snopes.com/history/american/gauge.asp
> 
> While the precise details are wrong, the general claim is more or less 
> true for boring and unremarkable reasons.
Ok.
> > As far as math goes. 10 is a nice round number. So multiples of 10 are
> > prefer. 80 being my personal choice for editing.
> That gives you 80 visible characters plus newline = 81 characters in 
> total. Quick, what's 81/7?
We are focusing on end-users, which might be simple minded. Simple is better than complex.
> > Zen says: Simple is better than complex. Use a round number. Integer
> > math is easier than float math for the majority of the population. Time
> > yourself, not the interpreter with these three questions: In the face of
> > ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess. If it helps get out the old
> > school pen and paper. Question1: 80/8
> > Question2: 79/8
> I don't see the point of this. Why divide by 8? What is this supposed to 
> demonstrate?
Divide by any simple number is 0 simple enouch...?
> Also, you're tossing around koans from a Zen that are irrelevant. 79 or 
> 80, both are equally simple. Where is the ambiguity? The reader might be 
> forgiven for thinking you're trying to dazzle them and pull the wool over 
> their eyes by tossing out references to the Zen that sound good but have 
> no relevance to the question being discussed.
No., 79 and 80 are not equally simple. 79 is odd, and 80 is even.
> 
> > Question3: How many chars does you calculator(real or virtual) support?
> Seven. Are you suggesting that we should limit our code to a maximum of 
Ok. Mine displays ten. This question was to get most people off their duff and grab a piece of old-school tech. Might be solar in nature.
> seven characters per line? If not, I don't see the point of your question.
See above answer.
> > Zen says: Special cases aren't special enough to break the rules. PEP8
> > isn't a rule. Rules are defined by the equipment/device developers.
> PEP 8 certainly is a collection of rules. They are mandatory for new code 
> added to the standard library, and optional but recommended for third 
> party libraries.
What are the official rules, then... None...?
> > Ask yourself... How often do you actually use these 79char devices?
> My brain is better at reading lines with maximum line length of 79 
> characters than 140 characters. How often do I use my brain? At least 
> once a day.
> [...]
Ok. I prefer 80 remember. Simple. base 10.
> > Zen says:
> > Although practicality beats purity.
> > Errors should never pass silently.
> > Unless explicitly silenced.
> And yet, a bird in the hand saves nine, and the early bird bells the cat.
if python.notDefined():
    cats != birds != cats 
> > PEP8 would have been better to define various numbers for realworld
> > types of equipment/devices based on average general type of
> > equipment/device specs.
> No it would not. That would be silly.
Well... Why Not? What do you use?
> > Closing Zen:
> > If the implementation is hard to explain, it's a bad idea. If the
> > implementation is easy to explain, it may be a good idea.
> The implementation is easy to explain: stop typing before you reach 79 
> characters, and start a new line of code.
I believe Guido once worked for google, why doesn't the software reflect your preferences. Ask google, or him, not me.
> > Yep, that's my nuts and bolts on the issue. Walk into you local
> > Printshop and ask them about this stuff. Then on your way out the door,
> > ask for a business card and see how many chars are on that also. Beware:
> > You might actually learn something about advertising while you are there
> > also. :)
> I don't need to ask them for a business card, since I have a nice 
> collection of them. Most of them have < 40 characters per line. A few 
> have < 60 characters on the longest line. None of them come even close to 
> 79 characters per line.
> What's your point? That we should limit ourselves to code that fits on a 
> business card?
My grandfather once told me, "If you can put you resume on a business card, you will succeed in life."

My business card reads "Jack-of-all-trades\nMaster of one: That's my Trade Secret."

> -- 
> 
> Steven

Love these...
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> > provided by google.
> production time of post - >'s
Simplicity.

Thanks Again for comments/opinions. It teaches everyone.

Back to comp.lang.python | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar | Unroll thread

Thread

Re: PEP8 79 char max Devyn Collier Johnson <devyncjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-07-29 16:24 -0400
  Re: PEP8 79 char max Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-07-29 21:42 +0000
    Re: PEP8 79 char max Devyn Collier Johnson <devyncjohnson@gmail.com> - 2013-07-29 18:30 -0400
    Re: PEP8 79 char max Ed Leafe <ed@leafe.com> - 2013-07-29 17:54 -0500
    Re: PEP8 79 char max Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-07-30 19:08 +0200
    Re: PEP8 79 char max Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-07-30 18:42 +0100
      Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-30 17:52 +0000
        Re: PEP8 79 char max Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-07-31 07:16 +0100
        Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-07-31 05:56 -0500
          Re: PEP8 79 char max Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-31 13:02 +0000
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-31 16:35 +0000
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Marcelo MD <lists.md@gmail.com> - 2013-07-31 14:45 -0300
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-31 17:59 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-31 18:16 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-31 18:37 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-31 18:56 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-07-31 19:25 +0000
                RE: PEP8 79 char max "Prasad, Ramit" <ramit.prasad@jpmorgan.com.dmarc.invalid> - 2013-07-31 18:33 +0000
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-07-31 13:05 -0500
          Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-07-31 16:32 +0000
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-07-31 13:19 -0500
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-07-31 13:24 -0500
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Joshua Landau <joshua@landau.ws> - 2013-08-01 18:21 +0100
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-08-01 19:03 +0000
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-01 19:29 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-01 19:53 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-08-01 20:39 -0400
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2013-08-02 13:58 +0000
        Re: PEP8 79 char max Wayne Werner <wayne@waynewerner.com> - 2013-08-03 06:23 -0500
          Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-05 15:21 -0700
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2013-09-05 21:47 -0400
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-05 19:59 -0700
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-06 04:01 +0000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-05 21:21 -0700
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 06:34 -0700
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 09:07 -0700
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Skip Montanaro <skip@pobox.com> - 2013-09-06 05:09 -0500
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-09-06 05:35 -0500
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Delaney <timothy.c.delaney@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 20:47 +1000
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-06 05:24 -0700
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Dennis Lee Bieber <wlfraed@ix.netcom.com> - 2013-09-06 19:22 -0400
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Tim Chase <python.list@tim.thechases.com> - 2013-09-06 07:56 -0500
                Re: PEP8 79 char max Neil Cerutti <neilc@norwich.edu> - 2013-09-06 13:12 +0000
            Re: PEP8 79 char max Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2013-09-06 03:40 +0000
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Metallicow <metaliobovinus@gmail.com> - 2013-09-05 21:19 -0700
              Re: PEP8 79 char max Serhiy Storchaka <storchaka@gmail.com> - 2013-09-07 21:00 +0300
    Re: PEP8 79 char max Vito De Tullio <vito.detullio@gmail.com> - 2013-07-30 20:00 +0200

csiph-web