Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class

Newsgroups	comp.lang.python
Date	2015-06-01 21:54 -0700
References	<14976c1b-a620-426f-b529-41a3c04e9c1a@googlegroups.com> <7f287dcf-8d52-4ab8-9768-88d1f75da269@googlegroups.com> <bb48ac94-c2ac-4874-9c95-7ac2280fd5bc@googlegroups.com> <mailman.39.1433218133.13271.python-list@python.org>
Message-ID	<5a959fda-25ac-4cd8-a8e4-f0d10fbf0ed0@googlegroups.com> (permalink)
Subject	Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class
From	TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com>

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On Monday, June 1, 2015 at 11:09:09 PM UTC-5, rand...@fastmail.us wrote:
> On Mon, Jun 1, 2015, at 20:24, TheDoctor wrote:
> > A type is not an object in the same way an instantiated type is an object
> > -- anymore than a blueprint for a building is the building itself.
> 
> What is an object?
> 
> It's something you can call str or repr on. It's something you can
> lookup attributes from its internal dictionary and call methods on. It's
> something you can compare whether it's == to something else. It's
> something you can pass as a parameter to a function

That's good material for relating to the issue. I wish I could justify my position better, but it gets into non-computational arguments.

> In many languages, you can't do any of these things (or their
> equivalents for those languages) to a type. In others, you have to get a
> special "class object" that isn't _really_ the same thing as the type
> itself, via some special syntax like typeof(Foo) or Foo.class, and can
> only work with it through magic methods in a certain module.
> 
> In python, you can. Why is this bad or confusing?

It breaks a conceptual barrier.  It's like the difference between seeing an ASCII character symbol and knowing the 8-bit binary digits.  One is a name, the other is the data.  That's an important distinction and they shouldn't be confused in the machine (which can't happen because the machine already creates that boundary).  In the case of the reader though, they can get confused -- they're not interchangeable.  They get "lexed" in the head very differently.

Mark

Thread

Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-05-31 07:34 -0700
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marco Buttu <marco.buttu@gmail.com> - 2015-05-31 17:13 +0200
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-05-31 11:37 -0400
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-01 04:00 +1000
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 10:35 -0700
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-05-31 17:29 -0700
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-01 14:09 +1000
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-05-31 20:09 -0700
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-01 14:24 +1000
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 05:03 -0700
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-01 23:59 +0100
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-02 11:45 +0100
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 04:16 -0700
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 09:09 -0600
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 17:24 -0700
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 10:32 +1000
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 18:02 -0700
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-02 16:30 +1000
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 18:15 -0700
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 11:30 +1000
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-02 00:13 -0400
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-02 16:23 +1000
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 20:15 -0700
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 04:46 +0100
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 21:47 -0700
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 22:01 -0700
            Religion [was Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class] Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-02 16:04 +1000
              Re: Religion [was Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class] Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 23:17 -0700
              Re: Religion [was Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class] Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 07:20 +0100
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-02 00:08 -0400
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class TheDoctor <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-01 21:54 -0700
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-02 17:12 +1000
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 00:44 -0700
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 18:37 +1000
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 02:18 -0700
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-02 12:23 +0300
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class vern.muhr@gmail.com - 2015-06-01 14:12 -0700
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 03:36 -0700
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 12:11 +0100
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-02 21:27 +1000
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 04:40 -0700
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 01:08 +1000
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Rustom Mody <rustompmody@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 09:14 -0700
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-02 13:49 +0100
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-02 16:13 +0300
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 03:00 +1000
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-02 18:59 +0100
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class random832@fastmail.us - 2015-06-02 14:07 -0400
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ned Batchelder <ned@nedbatchelder.com> - 2015-06-02 11:10 -0700
              Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 13:36 -0600
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 18:10 +0000
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 11:22 -0700
              Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 18:47 +0000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 12:00 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Jon Ribbens <jon+usenet@unequivocal.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 19:31 +0000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 13:50 -0600
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Grant Edwards <invalid@invalid.invalid> - 2015-06-02 21:19 +0000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-03 01:33 +0300
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 15:49 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 18:13 +1000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 21:38 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 18:24 +1000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-03 11:57 +0300
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 07:57 -0600
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 21:42 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 12:58 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-02 22:47 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 18:49 -0600
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 18:32 +1000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Ian Kelly <ian.g.kelly@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 13:37 -0600
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve+comp.lang.python@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-03 18:08 +1000
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 11:00 -0700
      Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-06-02 21:16 -0700
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 06:23 +0100
        Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 11:20 +0100
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 20:38 +1000
            Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 12:08 +0100
              Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marko Rauhamaa <marko@pacujo.net> - 2015-06-03 15:08 +0300
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 17:00 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 17:29 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 19:59 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 21:58 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 22:33 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Mark Lawrence <breamoreboy@yahoo.co.uk> - 2015-06-03 22:49 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-04 00:04 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-04 12:06 +0200
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-04 13:01 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Laura Creighton <lac@openend.se> - 2015-06-04 15:39 +0200
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class "Dr. Bigcock" <dreamingforward@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 21:50 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 22:43 -0700
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Michael Torrie <torriem@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 10:36 -0600
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 18:26 +0100
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Steven D'Aprano <steve@pearwood.info> - 2015-06-05 00:11 +1000
                Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-06-03 13:17 -0400
              Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Chris Angelico <rosuav@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 22:19 +1000
              Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Marco Buttu <marco.buttu@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 14:10 +0200
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class BartC <bc@freeuk.com> - 2015-06-03 12:13 +0100
          Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-06-03 13:05 -0400
    Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Terry Reedy <tjreedy@udel.edu> - 2015-06-02 12:23 -0400
  Re: Everything is an object in python - object class and type class Eddilbert Macharia <edd.cowan@gmail.com> - 2015-06-03 06:17 -0700

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