Groups | Search | Server Info | Login | Register

Groups > comp.lang.misc > #11390

Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release

From antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch)
Newsgroups comp.lang.misc
Subject Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release
Date 2025-10-09 03:15 +0000
Organization To protect and to server
Message-ID <10c79bs$1f2jq$1@paganini.bofh.team> (permalink)
References (10 earlier) <10bsfh5$2s2p0$2@dont-email.me> <10bsnt7$2vh99$2@dont-email.me> <10btkhq$3ao5s$1@dont-email.me> <10c6h3e$18jia$1@paganini.bofh.team> <10c6osp$1u91n$1@dont-email.me>

Show all headers | View raw

Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> wrote:
> On 08.10.2025 22:21, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>> [...]
>> 
>> I strongly disagree with this statement about pointers.  Using pointers
>> to represent functions is usual in C and pretty consistent with making
>> explicit things that other languages do behind the scenes.  Rather,
>> main limitation in C is that one can only use existing functions, there
>> is no way to make a new one. 
> 
>> Classic Pascal can make new functions,
> 
> Can you explain that. (I don't recall to be able to do composition
> of "new" functions other than by explicitly defining that function.
> Or if you meant something else please elaborate.)

Pascal has nested functions which have access to variables
defined in enclosing function.  You can pass such nested function
as an argument to other functions.   Given variable v and function
f having access to v and using it to produce result, call to f
will give different results depending on value of v.  So effectively
you get different function for each value of v.  You may object
that this is really not a new function and such objection is
quite reasonable in case of global f and v: at any given moment
there is single value of v so it is more natural to consider this
as mutation of bahaviour.  But in case when f and v are defined
inside some other function, say g, you may have multiple
activations of g, each having its own value of v.  Consequently
keeping v unchanged but choosing different instance of f you
get different behaviour.  So it is reasonable to consider
different instances of f as different functions.  At low level
implementation can get desired effect in various way, one
approach creates small piece of code (called trampoline) on
the stack and this code is responsible for calling modified
version of f, taking extra argument providing value of v.
With such approach there are actual new machine code function
created at runtime.  There are different approaches which does
not need any new machine code at runtime, but possiblity of
implementation via trampolines supports view that by effectively
cupturing value of v from enclosing functionwe create new
functions.

This is exactly the same mechanizm that most laguages claiming to
support higher order functions use to create function.  Difference
is that in Pascal needed data (and possibly created code) is kept
on the stack and becomes invalid when exclosing function (called g
above) returns.  Languages supporting higher order functions typically
allocate needed data (and possibly code) on garbage collected heap,
so it remains valid as long as there is reference from f.  So you
can return f and use it otside function that created it.

>> but one can not legaly return freshly created function, so in this
>> aspect is only marginally better than C.  Lambdas in C and C++ are
>> problematic as they are not usual way to represent functions in C or
>> C++.
> 
>> [...]
>> 
>> BTW: people doing functional programming sometimes claim that to
>> support it one needs garbage collection.  I arrived at the idea
>> above thinking which parts of functional programming can work
>> well without garbage collection.
> 
> Can you elaborate on that. (It never occurred to me that [technical]
> garbage collection would be necessary for the functional programming
> paradigm.)

If you use nested functions to create new functions (as I explained
above) you need a way to reclaim memory when created function is
no longer needed, which is typically done via garbage collection.

On more basic level, in functional programming you are expected
to write things like 'f(g(h(x)))' that is arguments to functions
are results of previous calls without explicitely storing them.
This works fine if you operate with values and copy them as needed.
But in functional programming people want to return potentially
large and complex date structures.  In such case it is natural
to allocate given data structure once and only pass references
around.  Trouble is, in chain of calls as above reference
returned by h is passed to g, but not available outside.  g may
embed reference r passed to it in its result or may not do it.
If g embeds r in its result, then normally it is not valid to
free memory referenced by r before it is used in f.  If g
does not embed r in its result, then after it returns there is
way to free memory referenced by r.

To put it differently: if you return dynamically allocated memory
in chain of calls as above you need to be very careful which
function is responsible with freeing allocated memory.  Slight
misunderstanding and you either leak memory of free it too
early.  Garbage collection solves this problem: allocate memory
when needed and take care to pass/return correct values, but
you do not need to worry when to free memory.  This makes quite
a big difference in practice.

One can imagine alternative solutions.  By considering "ownership"
of memory and using someting like Rust borrow checker it should
be possible for compiler to automatically insert 'free' in
needed places.  But in such case possible transfers of ownership
effectively are part of function type, so there are unnatural
from user point of view restrictions on what can be called.

BTW: I first time met this problem many years ago when my colegue
came to me asking for advice.  He wanted to do operations on
matrices via function calls.  IIRC he wanted to allocate them
dynamically and return allocated value.  Actual operations could
be easily written in Pascal.  But there were no way to safely
free allocated matrices, defeating the purpose of returning
allocated matrices.

BTW2: Now people frequently write C++ code which returns objects
having reference to dynamically allocated memory.  Destructor
takes case of freeing memory, so this is correct.  But efficiency
depends on copy constractors and compiler ability to optimize them.
If code is too complex to optimize there may be a lot of
copying and consequently such code may be quite inefficient.

-- 
                              Waldek Hebisch

Back to comp.lang.misc | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-23 06:49 +0200
  Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-23 15:22 +0100
    Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-23 17:49 +0200
      Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-24 00:58 +0100
        Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-25 01:49 +0200
          Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-26 23:53 +0100
    Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-23 19:28 +0200
      Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-24 00:27 +0100
        Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-24 02:49 +0000
          Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-25 01:57 +0200
        Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-25 02:14 +0200
          Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-27 00:58 +0100
            Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-27 08:23 +0200
              Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-27 23:23 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-28 07:35 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-29 00:43 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-30 05:40 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-30 20:38 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:10 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 17:20 +0100
                Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 00:56 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 01:15 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-02 17:02 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 22:17 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-04 17:01 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-05 04:32 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-02 23:04 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-03 01:46 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-04 00:30 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-10 17:15 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-10 23:57 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-11 07:27 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-11 09:42 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-11 17:16 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-27 00:41 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-27 14:38 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-29 01:15 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-29 16:05 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-29 18:57 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-30 15:58 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-30 17:48 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-29 19:08 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-30 23:23 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-01 23:00 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-02 16:55 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-02 21:51 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 12:38 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 14:04 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-04 13:47 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 15:03 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 15:07 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-04 18:40 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 19:46 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 16:37 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 17:16 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 23:58 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:20 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-08 16:10 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-08 17:41 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 00:53 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-09 01:02 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:09 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 22:27 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2025-10-08 00:20 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 22:00 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-05 00:31 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 01:52 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 03:15 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 11:05 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 20:20 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-06 09:44 +0200
                Higher order functions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-06 10:01 +0200
                Re: Higher order functions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-06 10:56 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-06 11:03 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-06 22:01 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-06 23:46 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-06 23:05 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 10:32 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 04:57 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-05 13:24 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 20:21 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:30 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-08 22:40 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-10 04:18 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-10 16:21 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-11 00:05 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 11:25 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-11 13:08 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 15:25 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-11 12:39 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 00:34 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 03:15 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 08:59 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 14:31 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 14:53 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 10:35 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 21:37 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-10 17:40 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-10 20:04 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-10 21:45 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 00:29 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-11 00:16 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 01:59 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-11 01:42 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 10:42 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-31 06:51 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-13 20:58 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-13 23:13 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-14 00:39 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-12 03:56 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-13 22:38 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-24 04:33 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-03 22:24 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 03:39 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 12:19 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 14:16 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 21:05 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 01:40 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 03:13 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-05 01:29 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 15:25 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 17:03 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-07 22:09 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2025-10-08 18:22 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:48 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 23:45 +0000
            Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-30 06:54 +0200
              Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-31 00:44 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-31 08:12 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:42 +0200
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 00:10 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-01 07:30 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 16:13 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-01 22:41 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-02 14:23 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-02 23:08 +0000
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-04 00:54 +0100
                Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:29 +0200
    Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-24 02:47 +0000

csiph-web