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| From | antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.misc |
| Subject | Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release |
| Date | 2025-10-05 01:29 +0000 |
| Organization | To protect and to server |
| Message-ID | <10bshlu$6v2p$1@paganini.bofh.team> (permalink) |
| References | (10 earlier) <10be779$2scen$1@dont-email.me> <10behvb$365mk$1@dont-email.me> <10bhl97$3hoao$2@dont-email.me> <10bpifl$3uh5a$1@paganini.bofh.team> <10bqvs1$2eb4m$1@dont-email.me> |
bart <bc@freeuk.com> wrote:
> On 03/10/2025 23:24, Waldek Hebisch wrote:
>> Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 29/09/2025 19:08, bart wrote:
>>>>> Loop/recursion unrolling can do that sort of thing. Space for an
>>>>> extra 225 m/c instructions is neither here nor there if it saves a
>>>>> few jumps or frames, esp with caches measured in megabytes.
>>>> You're right, if the program was just this 7-line function plus one
>>>> more line to call it.
>>>> But why go to those lengths for this one tiny function out of all
>>>> the thousands across an application?
>>>
>>> If you have "thousands" of functions in one application, then
>>> you're talking about something more substantial than anything I've
>>> ever written.
>
>> And to have some perspective, let me mention discussion of Open
>> Office startup. On Linux Open Office used to take substantial
>> time to start up.
>
> I sometimes use LibreOffice on Windows. Everything involves a delay. But
> until recently I'd only used it to paste stuff and print; I'd never
> tried actually typing a document. When I did so, the latency after every
> keystroke, or sometimes group of keystokes, made it unusable.
That is different problem. What I described was strictly startup
problem, once done did not affect runtime speed. And it affected
Open Office and only on Linux (startup on Windows was faster), when
you use newer thing like LibreOffice it is supposed to be fixed
(or at least worked around).
> This was after turning off every option I could find.
>
> This is on the same machine where I can build my entire 400KB compiler
> from scratch in between the keystrokes of a 60wpm typist, and probably
> twice! (Build time is 90ms, keystrokes are 200ms apart.)
>
> So something is obviously badly wrong, when I have to do my typing in my
> own crappy editor then paste the text. (Thunderbird had a similar
> problem a few years back; that was eventually fixed.)
Yes, something was wrong. IIUC Open Office/LibreOffice is doing rather
complex things after insertion of each character, but this is supposed
to be reasonably fast.
> Keeping on top of such things in any user application seems to be
> nobody's job.
Well, this is open source developement, many independent parties
cooperate to make it happen. No single entity is responsible for
the whole. So it may happen that something does not work and
nobody reacts.
>> The explantion was: Open Office had about
>> 250000 exported functions spread among tens of shared libraries.
>> ELF rules meant that at startup each function had to be looked
>> up sequantiall in available libraries. That led to large number
>> of lookups which took time. Similarly other large programs
>> have a lot of functions. Mere thousends means now relatively
>> small program.
>
> I actually have to do something similar in the backend of my compiler
> that generates EXE/DLL files. The same backend is used for a C front-end
> as well.
You want super-fast compilation so this may be a problem for you,
but most people do not expect large programs like Open Office
to compile very fast. But the problem I describle happened
on every startup, there was someting like extra 1.25s spent on each
startup. 1.25s added to build time of a large program is not
that much, but many users (including me) expect such program to
start up much faster.
> Both languages have a list of dynamically imported functions, but none
> is attached to a specific import library.
>
> When building, a list of libraries needs to be specified. The EXE format
> requires each imported function to be listed under a specific library.
The difference is that ELF normally requires searching all libraries
at runtime. I am not sure if one can say that a function comes from
a specific library, but the default is to search all libraries.
> But the process will look for each function in each library until found.
> It sounds inefficient, but I haven't noticed that it is a problem. Maybe
> the numbers are just small.
For programs using less functions time spent in search is shorter.
And, as I wrote above, developers do not expect to compile large
programs very fast. So, if done at compile/link time it would be
not a problem.
> (The backend does have the possibility of adding library info to each
> function name, so if the name is "msvcrt.printf" instead of just
> "printf", it knows to look only in "msvcrt.dll" instead of all DLLs. But
> the front-end doesn't take advantage.)
>
> When the EXE is loaded, the process should be fast as each function is
> listed within its specific DLL table.
Yes, Open Office on Windows started up measurably faster than on Linux.
> Does ELF not do that? Or is it slow because there are 250,000 functions,
> even if it knows where to find them?
As I wrote, normal (expected) behaviour with ELF is to search all
libraries at runtime. So, time is essentially c*M*N when c is cost of
single hashtable lookup, M is number of libraries and N is number of
symbols. More precisely, one expects on average to search trough about
half of libraries which lowers proportionality constant, but it
is much more than c*N expected when each function is searched only
in a single library.
> (I have an interpreted language where imported FFI functions *are*
> linked to specific DLL. Further, they are loaded on demand, so only when
> each is called.
>
> But I don't know how practical it would be to add that behaviour on top
> of EXE/ELF formats, without changing either the format, or the way the
> OS loader works. I suspect it would involve extra indirection for
> function calls (even after they are fixed up), so a slight slow-down.)
ELF specification is rather large with various optional parts. AFAIK
program may request a non-standard dynamic linker and attach extra
data to executable so technically one can change the behaviour.
More precisly, Linux kernel looks at field called "program interpreter"
in program headers. Normally this field is something like
"/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2" (that is standard ELF loader).
Kernel loads it into RAM and passes control to it. Rest is
"user mode" operation and if you put in program header path to
your own loader you can get quite different behaviour.
Concerning "practical": standard ELF loader is doing a bunch of
somewhat tricky things and compiled code depends on loader doing
those things. So you either loose compatiblity with compilers
or reimplement needed stuff. Standard loader is about 210 kB
of binary code. Source of standard loader is available so one
can reuse part of it. I would say that writing replacement
loader is doable, but needs some effort.
AFAIK Open Office/LibreOffice used somewhat different path.
Namely, most Open Office symbols are C++ methods. Those
must be visible in some other parts of a library, but normally
there is no need to make them visible outside given library.
Previously, everthing visible in other files was made visible
outside given library. IIUC now most of those symbols are not
subject to ELF dynamic linking: they are resolved when linking
a library and not visible outside.
--
Waldek Hebisch
Back to comp.lang.misc | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar
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Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-30 20:38 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:10 +0200
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 17:20 +0100
Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 00:56 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 01:15 +0200
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Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-02 22:17 +0200
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Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release (was Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format) Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-04 00:30 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-10 17:15 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-10 23:57 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-11 07:27 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-11 09:42 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-11 17:16 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-27 00:41 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-27 14:38 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-29 01:15 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-29 16:05 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-29 18:57 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-30 15:58 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-09-30 17:48 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-09-29 19:08 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-30 23:23 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-01 23:00 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-02 16:55 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-02 21:51 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 12:38 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 14:04 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-04 13:47 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 15:03 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 15:07 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-04 18:40 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 19:46 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 16:37 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 17:16 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 23:58 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:20 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-08 16:10 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-08 17:41 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 00:53 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-09 01:02 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-08 01:09 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 22:27 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release richard@cogsci.ed.ac.uk (Richard Tobin) - 2025-10-08 00:20 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 22:00 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-05 00:31 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 01:52 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 03:15 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 11:05 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 20:20 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-06 09:44 +0200
Higher order functions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release) Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-06 10:01 +0200
Re: Higher order functions (was Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release) David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-06 10:56 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-06 11:03 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-06 22:01 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-06 23:46 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-06 23:05 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 10:32 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 04:57 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-05 13:24 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 20:21 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:30 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-08 22:40 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-10 04:18 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-10 16:21 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-11 00:05 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 11:25 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-11 13:08 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 15:25 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-11 12:39 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-09 00:34 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 03:15 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 08:59 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-09 14:31 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 14:53 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release ram@zedat.fu-berlin.de (Stefan Ram) - 2025-10-09 10:35 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-09 21:37 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-10 17:40 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-10 20:04 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-10 21:45 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 00:29 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-11 00:16 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 01:59 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-11 01:42 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-11 10:42 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-31 06:51 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-13 20:58 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-13 23:13 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-14 00:39 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-12 03:56 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release David Brown <david.brown@hesbynett.no> - 2025-10-13 22:38 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-24 04:33 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-03 22:24 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 03:39 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-04 12:19 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-10-04 14:16 +0200
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-04 21:05 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-05 01:40 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-05 03:13 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-05 01:29 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-10-07 15:25 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release bart <bc@freeuk.com> - 2025-10-07 17:03 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-07 22:09 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Adam Sampson <ats@offog.org> - 2025-10-08 18:22 +0100
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-10-08 21:48 +0000
Re: Algol 68 / Genie - new release antispam@fricas.org (Waldek Hebisch) - 2025-10-08 23:45 +0000
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-30 06:54 +0200
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-08-31 00:44 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-31 08:12 +0000
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:42 +0200
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 00:10 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-01 07:30 +0000
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-01 16:13 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-01 22:41 +0000
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-02 14:23 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-09-02 23:08 +0000
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Andy Walker <anw@cuboid.co.uk> - 2025-09-04 00:54 +0100
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Janis Papanagnou <janis_papanagnou+ng@hotmail.com> - 2025-08-31 10:29 +0200
Re: Algol 68 - formatting with fixed point format Lawrence D’Oliveiro <ldo@nz.invalid> - 2025-08-24 02:47 +0000
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