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Final Fantasy 2 based game source code

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  Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Turtle Wizard <elvishNOSPAM.healer@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 22:26 +0100
    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 18:49 -0700
      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-20 07:18 +0000
        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 20:28 +1100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-20 13:34 +0000
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 12:07 -0700
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:26 -0400
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-21 08:11 +0000
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 20:58 +1100
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 12:29 -0700
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 20:34 +0000
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:56 -0400
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 15:24 -0700
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 09:18 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-22 07:15 -0300
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 13:54 +0000
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 10:25 -0700
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 18:14 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 13:22 -0700
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 20:26 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 13:32 -0700
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 21:39 +0000
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 08:50 +1100
                                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-22 23:26 +0100
                                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 09:39 +1100
                                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:15 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:12 -0400
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:08 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-23 10:59 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 15:33 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:19 -0500
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 16:57 +0000
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-22 14:07 -0500
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 20:09 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:31 -0400
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 08:54 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-23 23:01 -0500
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-24 10:04 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-24 17:07 -0300
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-25 09:19 +0000
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-25 09:26 +0000
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:49 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-23 11:12 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 15:24 +0000
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 16:21 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 17:10 +0000
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 18:27 +0000
                                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 18:51 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-23 22:00 -0300
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:19 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 14:12 +1100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 09:06 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 20:57 +1100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 10:42 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 22:11 +1100
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 11:53 +0000
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:58 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 13:51 +0000
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-20 09:28 -0500
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 15:03 +0000
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:32 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 17:52 +0100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 17:43 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 10:01 +1100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 08:35 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:35 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:18 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-03-22 18:00 -0600
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 11:08 +1100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:26 -0400
        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 12:41 +0100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-03-20 05:59 -0700
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-20 20:33 +0100
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 23:15 +0100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-21 00:11 +0100
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-21 00:27 +0100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:39 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-03-21 10:01 -0700
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:39 -0400
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-22 01:21 +0100
      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code bubble <bubble@soft29.vub.ac.be> - 2013-03-24 14:16 +0000

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#22971 — Final Fantasy 2 based game source code

Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 : http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/

-- 
Time heals.
my blog : http://thediaryofelvishhealer.blogspot.be/

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#22972

Turtle Wizard wrote:
> Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 :
> http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/

- You should follow the Java Coding Conventions, at least as far as indentation and 
   naming are concerned.

- Consider encapsulating the long initialization sequences in methods of the class 
   being initialized.

- Sequences like 

    public Image getFirstCharacterLeftImage(int idx)
    {
        return firstplayercharacter.getLeftImage(idx);
    }

    public Image getSecondCharacterLeftImage(int idx)
    {
        return secondplayercharacter.getLeftImage(idx);
    }

    public Image getThirdCharacterLeftImage(int idx)
    {
        return thirdplayercharacter.getLeftImage(idx);
    }
   ... 

   are clumsy programming. Those should be calls the the same method, 
   e.g., 'getLeftImage()', from each of the first, second, third, ... instances of 
   some sort of 'GameCharacter' type. 

   What you've done is the antithesis of object oriented.

- Eschew import-on-demand for single-type imports.

- Your hierarchies are strange, for example 'CityNameDatabaseBase'. Why is that split 
   into two types?

- Speaking of 'CityNameDatabaseBase', 
     protected LinkedList words = new LinkedList();

   DO NOT USE RAW TYPES!  YECCCH!

   Declare the variable as a 'List<Something>', or 'Set<Something>', or 'Collection<Something>'.
   And why did you select 'LinkedList' for the implementation? Didn't 'ArrayList' suffice? 
   And really, shouldn't it be a 'Set' (to avoid duplicates) rather than a 'List'?

-  Object o = words.get(index);
    String s = (String)o;

    This is why you don't use raw types. And 'o' and 's' are nasty variable names. 

-  "Copyright (C) <year> <name of author>"
    Really?

-  This is not how to do i18n:
        if (language == "Dutch" || language == "dutch") {
                textlib.addText("Er is onrust in het Oosten..");
                textlib.addText("een oud kwaad is aan het herrijzen..");
                //set to "-1" for not popping up the learn widget
                learnvarlib.addText("-1");
                learnvarlib.addText("-1");

                asktextlib.addText("Aangenaam.");
                itemtextlib.addText("Hopelijk heb je het niet nodig.");
                learntextlib.addText("Dulandar is dit elfen dorpje.");
                learnedanotherwordtextlib.addText("Elfen dansen en zingen graag.");
 
   Use resource bundles. That's what they're for.

And so on and so on.

I don't know how to evaluate beginner projects, but you have a ways to go.

You need to learn object-oriented programming, and Java.

-- 
Lew

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#22973

Lew wrote:

>  Turtle Wizard wrote:
> > Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 :
> > http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/
>
> [Snip Lew's code review]

Lew, I want to start with a thank you for conducting a code review on
Turtle's project. Technically it is mostly resonable advice.

The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.

Could it be possible that people would be more inclined to take your advice
to heart if you took another approach?

This is usenet, and obviously you are free to post in whatever tone you
like. However, there is something to be said for being kind to others,
especially newbies and people you do not know.

-- 
Fredrik Jonson

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#22974

"Fredrik Jonson"  wrote in message 
news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...

[Apologies for the lack of indentation, reply at end of post]

Lew wrote:

>  Turtle Wizard wrote:
> > Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 :
> > http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/
>
> [Snip Lew's code review]

Lew, I want to start with a thank you for conducting a code review on
Turtle's project. Technically it is mostly resonable advice.

The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.

Could it be possible that people would be more inclined to take your advice
to heart if you took another approach?

This is usenet, and obviously you are free to post in whatever tone you
like. However, there is something to be said for being kind to others,
especially newbies and people you do not know.

-----------------------------------

Let me offer you some advice Fredrik.

I have observed Lew's comments and behaviour in this group for several 
years.  While he may come across as "hostile" or "rude" on first impression, 
I believe he is not trying to be either of those things.  There is no doubt 
that Lew has excellent skills and knowledge in Java and you can do far worse 
than to follow his advice or learn from him.  He reviewed your code and 
provided some feedback because he wanted to help you, not to get his jollies 
belittling you or showing how clever he is.  He didn't have to do that (it 
takes time and effort) and he gains nothing from it other than the 
satisfaction of helping people.

The other thing to remember is that the world is a tough place and to 
succeed as a developer you need to be able to compete on the world stage and 
amongst talented peers.  Had Lew delivered a "softer" response you may have 
been less likely to react in a positive, motivated way.  Prospective 
employers would most likely be much harder on you than Lew has been. 
Programmers competing with you for a position or trying to get ahead of you 
in the workplace will also not be so generous and are unlikely to be as 
courteous.

I strongly suggest you accept the (constructive) criticism and strive to be 
a better developer.

I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand the 
heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that analogy in 
the terms of software development.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#22977

Qu0ll wrote:

>  Let me offer you some advice Fredrik. [...] you can do far worse than to
>  follow his advice or learn from him.  He reviewed your code [...]

It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.

-- 
Fredrik Jonson

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#22986

Fredrik Jonson wrote:
> It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
> familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.

You are free to interpret my "tone" however you please, but please do understand 
that that is entirely a projection on your part.

Every statement I made to the OP was objective and supportable by the evidence.

Every statement I made was meant to be taken literally. If you want "tone", read it 
out loud to yourself in a robot voice, keeping inflection as neutral and unvarying 
as you can.

I am not overly concerned with your emotional interpretation of objective statements.

-- 
Lew

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#22999

On 3/20/2013 3:07 PM, Lew wrote:
> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>> It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
>> familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.
>
> You are free to interpret my "tone" however you please, but please do understand
> that that is entirely a projection on your part.
>
> Every statement I made to the OP was objective and supportable by the evidence.
>
> Every statement I made was meant to be taken literally. If you want "tone", read it
> out loud to yourself in a robot voice, keeping inflection as neutral and unvarying
> as you can.

There were plenty of good objective advice based on evidence in your
post.

But as Fredrik pointed out, then there were also a few cases of
more colorful language.

"clumsy programming"

"antithesis of object oriented"

"YECCCH!"

"nasty variable name"

These are neither objective, polite or technical.

> I am not overly concerned with your emotional interpretation of objective statements.

Communication is an important part of software development.

Good communication includes using precise well defined terms for
clarity and terms that does not offend people and by that move
attention from substance to form.

So if you want to become a better developer, then you should
learn to communicate without "clumsy", "nasty" etc..

Arne

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#23013

Arne Vajhøj wrote:

> So if you want to become a better developer, then you should
> learn to communicate without "clumsy", "nasty" etc..

And by way of a hint as to why it matters, Lew might speculate about why it is 
that he has been in my killfile ever since I returned (albeit infrequently) to 
c.l.j.p.

    -- chris 

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#23018

"Chris Uppal"  wrote in message 
news:JcSdneJK3piUX9fMnZ2dnUVZ8kqdnZ2d@bt.com...

> And by way of a hint as to why it matters, Lew might speculate about why 
> it is that he has been in my killfile ever since I returned (albeit 
> infrequently) to c.l.j.p.

Do tell us how that's working out for you.

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#23038

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Lew wrote:
>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>>> It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
>>> familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.
> 
>> You are free to interpret my "tone" however you please, but please do understand
>> that that is entirely a projection on your part.
> 
>> Every statement I made to the OP was objective and supportable by the evidence.
>>
>> Every statement I made was meant to be taken literally. If you want "tone", read it
>> out loud to yourself in a robot voice, keeping inflection as neutral and unvarying
>> as you can.
> 
> There were plenty of good objective advice based on evidence in your
> post.
> 
> But as Fredrik pointed out, then there were also a few cases of
> more colorful language.
> 
> "clumsy programming"

Clumsy: going through many steps in a way that obscures the logic, as opposed 
to few steps that express the logic.

Not colorful, technical.

> "antithesis of object oriented"

Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes, and operate 
on objects of those types. The antithesis of that is to break up behaviors into multiple 
extrinsically-related data structures with no correlations to each other but conventions 
of integer index equality.

Not colorful, technical and precise. The OP's approach is exactly antithetical to 
object-oriented programming.

> "YECCCH!"

I'll give you that one.

> "nasty variable name"

Nasty in that it promotes error, diminishes readability and opposes the Java Coding Conventions.

Again, technical.

> These are neither objective, polite or technical.

Says you! Plptptpttthhh!

>> I am not overly concerned with your emotional interpretation of objective statements.

> Communication is an important part of software development.

Maybe instead of scolding me you should focus on providing help.

> Good communication includes using precise well defined terms for
> clarity and terms that does not offend people and by that move
> attention from substance to form.

Good pedagogy is to provide memorable and accurate memes and tropes.

> So if you want to become a better developer, then you should
> learn to communicate without "clumsy", "nasty" etc..

Thank you for your opinion.

-- 
Lew

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#23041

On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>>>> It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
>>>> familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.

[snip]

>> "clumsy programming"
>
> Clumsy: going through many steps in a way that obscures the logic, as opposed
> to few steps that express the logic.
>
> Not colorful, technical.

No, clumsy is not a technical term it's pejorative.

[snip technobabble]

>> "nasty variable name"
>
> Nasty in that it promotes error, diminishes readability and opposes the Java Coding Conventions.
>
> Again, technical.

No, nasty is not a technical term it's pejorative.

>> Communication is an important part of software development.
>
> Maybe instead of scolding me you should focus on providing help.
>
>> Good communication includes using precise well defined terms for
>> clarity and terms that does not offend people and by that move
>> attention from substance to form.
>
> Good pedagogy is to provide memorable and accurate memes and tropes.

A meme is a self-replicating mutable phenomena, a meme by definition 
cannot be accurate ... a meme can be memorable but the memory is of a 
transient state that exists, again by definition, transiently. meme is a 
technical term.

A useful trope is a metaphor :-) a metaphor uses analogy to express a 
concept by association. the accuracy of a metaphor is subjective and the 
memory of a poor a poor analogy can be difficult to shift if not 
explicitly corrected. trope is a technical term.

clumsy, nasty and the other pejorative terms you used in your response 
are neither meme nor trope.

So what is your point.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#23049

On 3/21/2013 3:29 PM, Lew wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>>>> It isn't my code. I don't know who the original poster is, and I'm not
>>>> familiar with his projects. I just had to call out on Lew's tone.
>>
>>> You are free to interpret my "tone" however you please, but please do understand
>>> that that is entirely a projection on your part.
>>
>>> Every statement I made to the OP was objective and supportable by the evidence.
>>>
>>> Every statement I made was meant to be taken literally. If you want "tone", read it
>>> out loud to yourself in a robot voice, keeping inflection as neutral and unvarying
>>> as you can.
>>
>> There were plenty of good objective advice based on evidence in your
>> post.
>>
>> But as Fredrik pointed out, then there were also a few cases of
>> more colorful language.
>>
>> "clumsy programming"
>
> Clumsy: going through many steps in a way that obscures the logic, as opposed
> to few steps that express the logic.
 >
> Not colorful, technical.

Clumsy is a term expressing a negative value of something and not
providing any details or explanation.

It is not technical.

>> "antithesis of object oriented"
>
> Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes, and operate
> on objects of those types. The antithesis of that is to break up behaviors into multiple
> extrinsically-related data structures with no correlations to each other but conventions
> of integer index equality.
>
> Not colorful, technical and precise. The OP's approach is exactly antithetical to
> object-oriented programming.

To be that it would need to be as far away from OOP as possible,
so it would be impossible to write something less OOP.

I am pretty sure that is not the case. There are many options available
for "creativity".

Not precise and not correct.

>> "YECCCH!"
>
> I'll give you that one.
>
>> "nasty variable name"
>
> Nasty in that it promotes error, diminishes readability and opposes the Java Coding Conventions.
>
> Again, technical.

It is a term that expresses value - extreme negative value - it has zero 
technical meaning.

>>> I am not overly concerned with your emotional interpretation of objective statements.
>
>> Communication is an important part of software development.
>
> Maybe instead of scolding me you should focus on providing help.

It happens occasionally.

>> Good communication includes using precise well defined terms for
>> clarity and terms that does not offend people and by that move
>> attention from substance to form.
>
> Good pedagogy is to provide memorable and accurate memes and tropes.
 >
>> So if you want to become a better developer, then you should
>> learn to communicate without "clumsy", "nasty" etc..
>
> Thank you for your opinion.

Somehow I get the impression that you are not so convinced.

:-)

Arne

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#23051

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> Clumsy is a term expressing a negative value of something and not
> providing any details or explanation.

I object to clumsy code.

> It is not technical.

Says you.

> To be that it would need to be as far away from OOP as possible,
> so it would be impossible to write something less OOP.
> 
> I am pretty sure that is not the case. There are many options available
> for "creativity".

I disagree. I don't think the code could have been written in Java and been 
more antithetical to O-O programming priniciples.

You have a different opinion. But are you saying that this code is within the 
bounds of style and creative variation and still acceptably object oriented?

Because I say otherwise.

> Not precise and not correct.

Maybe not perfectly precise, but within epsilon, and certainly correct.

>>> "nasty variable name"
> 
> It is a term that expresses value - extreme negative value - it has zero 
> technical meaning.

Maybe you are a fan of nasty variable names. I am not.

Don't promote bad programming practices.

The OP presented code that is of very amateurish quality, lacking in fundamental 
object-oriented structure, barely acceptable as a student project in a first-semester 
programming course with Java. It is not at a level where one could pitch a product.

As I said in my response, I don't know how to evaluate it as a beginner project, but 
a beginner project it most assuredly is. The code is badly structured (to the extent that 
it is structured at all), does not use the strengths of the language, uses nasty variable names, 
not all of which are even needed, eschews generics in favor of raw types (YECCCH!) and is
in total quite unsuitable for productization.

Deal with it.

-- 
Lew

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#23056

On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> Lew wrote:
>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:

[snip]

> Not colorful, technical.
>
>> "antithesis of object oriented"
>
> Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes, and operate
> on objects of those types.

This is a very poor description of OO.

In C I can do something like

struct node{
    int value;
    struct node *next;
};

struct stack{
   struct node **sp;
   void (*push)(int i);
   int (*pop)();
   int (*top)();
};

void foo(){
   struct stack *notOO = malloc(sizeof(struct stack));
}

According to you then this is Object Oriented ... interesting 
interpretation.

[snip]

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#23058

On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> Lew wrote:
>>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> Not colorful, technical.
>>
>>> "antithesis of object oriented"
>>
>> Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes,
>> and operate
>> on objects of those types.
>
> This is a very poor description of OO.
>
> In C I can do something like
>
> struct node{
>     int value;
>     struct node *next;
> };
>
> struct stack{
>    struct node **sp;
>    void (*push)(int i);
>    int (*pop)();
>    int (*top)();
> };
>
> void foo(){
>    struct stack *notOO = malloc(sizeof(struct stack));
> }
>
> According to you then this is Object Oriented ... interesting
> interpretation.
>
> [snip]
>
> lipska
>
It doesn't have to be implemented the way you did it, with function 
pointers as struct members. You could have function pointers in a 
separate dispatch table, or use "regular" functions which have an object 
pointer as an argument etc.

A starting point for simple inheritance in C (perhaps more of the 
prototype approach) would be a pointer to a parent object. And so forth.

But all this *is* object-oriented, actually. I don't know what more you 
think object-oriented is, at the basic level.

AHS

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#23060

On 22/03/13 10:15, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
> On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>> Lew wrote:
>>>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> Not colorful, technical.
>>>
>>>> "antithesis of object oriented"
>>>
>>> Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes,
>>> and operate
>>> on objects of those types.
>>

[snip]

>>
> It doesn't have to be implemented the way you did it,

Not sure what your point is here. I did it this way as it's the nearest 
I can get to encapsulating a stack in C.

If the criteria for calling something OO is something that

<cite>
collect[s] behaviors into types with attributes, and operate[s]
on objects of those types
</cite>

Then my C code is OO ... except we both know that is isn't.

> But all this *is* object-oriented, actually. I don't know what more you
> think object-oriented is, at the basic level.

What do you mean 'basic level' do you think there are different measures 
of 'objectness'?

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#23067

On 3/22/13 6:54 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 22/03/13 10:15, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>> On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
>>>> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> Lew wrote:
>>>>>> Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>>>
>>> [snip]
>>>
>>>> Not colorful, technical.
>>>>
>>>>> "antithesis of object oriented"
>>>>
>>>> Object oriented means to collect behaviors into types with attributes,
>>>> and operate
>>>> on objects of those types.
>>>
>
> [snip]
>
>>>
>> It doesn't have to be implemented the way you did it,
>
> Not sure what your point is here. I did it this way as it's the nearest
> I can get to encapsulating a stack in C.
>
> If the criteria for calling something OO is something that
>
> <cite>
> collect[s] behaviors into types with attributes, and operate[s]
> on objects of those types
> </cite>
>
> Then my C code is OO ... except we both know that is isn't.
>
It sure looked OO to me.

A program can be OO without having the language support OO inherently. 
You're snippet is a perfect example of that.

>> But all this *is* object-oriented, actually. I don't know what more you
>> think object-oriented is, at the basic level.
>
> What do you mean 'basic level' do you think there are different measures
> of 'objectness'?
You've attempted to deflect the question.

What, to you, is the definition of Object Oriented Programming?

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#23068

On 22/03/13 17:25, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 3/22/13 6:54 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 22/03/13 10:15, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>> On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:

[snip]

> What, to you, is the definition of Object Oriented Programming?

I've responded up thread, why don't you read that before jumping in gob 
first.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#23070

On 3/22/13 11:14 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 22/03/13 17:25, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>> On 3/22/13 6:54 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>> On 22/03/13 10:15, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>> On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>> What, to you, is the definition of Object Oriented Programming?
>
> I've responded up thread, why don't you read that before jumping in gob
> first.
"Up thread" has no reference to the definition of Object Oriented 
Programming. You provide what you consider a counter-example, but that 
doesn't make a definition.

How about you answer the question still on the table.

What is your definition of Object Oriented Programming?

If you've answered this elsewhere, please quote the relevant text to 
keep the context together.

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#23071

On 22/03/13 20:22, Daniel Pitts wrote:
> On 3/22/13 11:14 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>> On 22/03/13 17:25, Daniel Pitts wrote:
>>> On 3/22/13 6:54 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>> On 22/03/13 10:15, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
>>>>> On 03/22/2013 06:18 AM, lipska the kat wrote:
>>>>>> On 21/03/13 19:29, Lew wrote:
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>>> What, to you, is the definition of Object Oriented Programming?
>>
>> I've responded up thread, why don't you read that before jumping in gob
>> first.
> "Up thread" has no reference to the definition of Object Oriented
> Programming. You provide what you consider a counter-example, but that
> doesn't make a definition.
>
> How about you answer the question still on the table.
>
> What is your definition of Object Oriented Programming?

Programming is what you do to your washing machine.
I suggest you stick to that if you can't find the relevant text

I'm not about to repeat myself.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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