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Basic question about compiling

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  Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 08:12 -0800
    Re: Basic question about compiling Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-02-10 09:00 -0800
      Re: Basic question about compiling Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 09:29 -0800
        Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 11:48 -0800
          Re: Basic question about compiling Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 13:11 -0800
            Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 13:17 -0800
              Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 17:58 -0500
                Re: Basic question about compiling Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 20:11 -0800
                  Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:39 -0500
                Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 22:14 -0800
                  Re: Basic question about compiling Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-02-12 00:36 -0600
                    Re: Basic question about compiling Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-02-14 06:15 -0800
                  Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:37 -0500
                    Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-12 11:04 -0800
                      Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 14:34 -0500
                  Re: Basic question about compiling Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2012-02-14 12:29 +0200
                  Re: Basic question about compiling RedGrittyBrick <RedGrittyBrick@spamweary.invalid> - 2012-02-15 10:38 +0000
          Re: Basic question about compiling rossum <rossum48@coldmail.com> - 2012-02-11 18:57 +0000
          Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 15:14 -0500
            Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 12:58 -0800
              Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 16:18 -0500
              Re: Basic question about compiling Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-11 18:13 -0400
                Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-11 22:21 -0800
      Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 11:26 -0800
        Re: Basic question about compiling Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-02-10 11:37 -0800
          Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 11:51 -0800
          Re: Basic question about compiling simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> - 2012-02-10 12:30 -0800
            Re: Basic question about compiling Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 15:00 -0500
          Re: Basic question about compiling Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-02-10 23:30 +0100
    Re: Basic question about compiling Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2012-02-11 02:33 -0800

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#11903 — Basic question about compiling

I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.

I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
the following command:

javac -d %DST% ^
      -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
      %SRC%\MyApplet.java >%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err

where
%CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
\User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
and
%CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
communicate with javascript in the page).

OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
browser I am getting the exception

Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.

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#11907

On 2/10/2012 8:12 AM, simplicity wrote:
> I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
>
> I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> the following command:
>
> javac -d %DST% ^
>        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
>        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
>
> where
> %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> and
> %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> communicate with javascript in the page).
>
> OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
> it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
> browser I am getting the exception
>
> Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
> java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
>
> Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
> the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
> blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
>
> Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
> is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
> run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
> errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.
>

Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the 
jar files?

http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html

-- 

Knute Johnson

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#11911

Knute Johnson wrote:
> simplicity wrote:
> > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
> >
> > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> > the following command:
> >
> > javac -d %DST% ^
> >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
> >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
> >
> > where
> > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> > and
> > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> > communicate with javascript in the page).
> >
> > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where

So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.

> > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
> > browser I am getting the exception
> >
> > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
> > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener

Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!

You need to study the Java tutorial.

> > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
> > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
> > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.

Your expectations are what are at fault.

You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

> > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this

We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.

> > is generally caused by SBSDKListener class not being available at the
> > run time (while it is available at compile time, hence no build
> > errors) but I do not understand what it means in practical terms.

It means, in practical terms, that you neglected to provide the applet with 
its dependencies. Consider Knute's question:

> Do you have an archive statement in your APPLET tag that lists all the 
> jar files?
> 
> http://docs.oracle.com/javase/1.4.2/docs/guide/misc/applet.html

Presumably he linked you to ancient docs to make the point that nothing has 
changed in this area for a very long time.

You should read the tutorials and other documentation.

-- 
Lew

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#11915

On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew <lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Knute Johnson wrote:
> > simplicity wrote:
> > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
>
> > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> > > the following command:
>
> > > javac -d %DST% ^
> > >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
> > >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
>
> > > where
> > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> > > and
> > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> > > communicate with javascript in the page).
>
> > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
>
> So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.
>
> > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
> > > browser I am getting the exception
>
> > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
> > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
>
> Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!
>
> You need to study the Java tutorial.
>
> > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
> > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
> > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
>
> Your expectations are what are at fault.

I guess you are right. When I post the question on the public forum my
expectations are (1) get the answer, regardless of how trivial, basic
and obvious it might be or (2) get a gibberish like the stuff you
spent time on creating.

"Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
shut.

> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.

Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.

> > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this

> We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.

And also thanks for your attempt to point out to me how really stupid
I am. I am going to try to improve...

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#11918

On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew <lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > Knute Johnson wrote:
> > > simplicity wrote:
> > > > I know this is kind of basic but somehow the solution escapes me.
> >
> > > > I have the applet which is supposed to hook up with the hardware
> > > > attach to the computer. The hook-up interface is available in the
> > > > external JAR archive called sbsdk.jar. So, I compile the applet with
> > > > the following command:
> >
> > > > javac -d %DST% ^
> > > >        -classpath %CLASSPATH_1%;%CLASSPATH_2% ^
> > > >        %SRC%\MyApplet.java>%DST%\MyApplet.log 2>%DST%\MyApplet.err
> >
> > > > where
> > > > %CLASSPATH_1% points to the location of the sbsdk.jar, namely "C:\Users
> > > > \User\\Java\lib\sbsdk.jar"
> > > > and
> > > > %CLASSPATH_2% points to "%JRE%\lib\plugin.jar" (for JSObject to
> > > > communicate with javascript in the page).
> >
> > > > OK, so far so good. Applet compiles with no issues. But that's where
> >
> > So far all you've done is specify the compile-time classpath.
> >
> > > > it ends. When I load the HTML file containing the applet into a
> > > > browser I am getting the exception
> >
> > > > Exception in thread "thread applet-MyApplet.class-1"
> > > > java.lang.NoClassDefFoundError: com.<blah-blah>.sbsdk/SBSDKListener
> >
> > Because you did not provide the JAR to the runtime classpath!
> >
> > You need to study the Java tutorial.
> >
> > > > Luckily, I have the access to the sbsdk.jar source code.  When I copy
> > > > the folder structure containing compiled classes of sbsdk (com\<blah-
> > > > blah>\sbsdk), my applet loads and everything works as expected.
> >
> > Your expectations are what are at fault.
> 
> I guess you are right. When I post the question on the public forum my
> expectations are (1) get the answer, regardless of how trivial, basic
> and obvious it might be or (2) get a gibberish like the stuff you
> spent time on creating.
> 
> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> shut.

So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

> > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
> 
> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

You asked specifically for help understanding the issue. Another respondent had 
given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time 
repeating his good advice. However, that only answered part of your question. 
You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" I am so 
very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully.
I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information 
that you requested.

> Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
> and my advise [sic] to you is: give people a bit of a slack.

Your answer showed no signs of you having read or understood the very basic 
need in Java to have the JAR present at runtime as well as at compile time.
Under the circumstances, telling you what to research and where seemed 
appropriate. Now, untwist your knickers, please.

> > > > Can someone help me understand why this is happening? I know that this
> 
> > We can tell you why this is happening; we cannot help you understand it.
> 
> And also thanks for your attempt to point out to me how really stupid
> I am. I am going to try to improve...

With that level of response to the help you received, I doubt it.

-- 
Lew

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#11949

On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew <lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> > "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> > whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> > shut.
>
> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?

No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
"RTFM" type.

> > > You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>
> You asked specifically for help understanding the issue.

That's right. What you covered in your answered I got from reading the
exception in the console. So, from the quality point of view you were
not very revealing.

> Another respondent had
> given you a recipe for repair; I did not see any point in wasting your time
> repeating his good advice.

There was a big difference between his and your replies. If you don't
see this, well, too bad...

> However, that only answered part of your question.
> You also asked, "Can someone help me understand why this is happening?" I am so
> very sorry I took your question seriously and tried to answer it more fully.
> I guess I was under the assumption that you actually wanted the information
> that you requested.

Wrong. You wrote, quote, "We can tell you why this is happening; we
cannot help you understand it." I do not know who that "we" is in your
statement, the fact remains that "we" did neither.

OK, I got the help I sought and a bit of entertainment at the same
time.

Cheers...

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#11952

On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>> shut.
>>
>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> "RTFM" type.

Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.

If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
in the group.

Arne

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#11959

Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> simplicity wrote:
> > Lew wrote:
> >> simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
> >>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
> >
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
> 
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
> 
> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
> in the group.

"simplicity", you seriously need to get over yourself. This is not your 
personal, private little slave pool to offer answers to any questions you ask 
and take abuse from you. This is a Usenet *discussion* group, and any help you 
get is at the discretion and voluntary desire to help of the other 
participants.

It is just too bad for you that you didn't find my answer helpful, but that is 
not any kind of excuse for your rudeness and ingratitude and downright 
snarkiness. You have no basis whatsoever for this arrogant attitude of 
entitlement you evince, nor have I done anything so rude as to merit the kind 
of personal attack in which you've engaged. The answers I gave are helpful to 
you, should you get down off your high horse to do the kind of studying and 
learning you so clearly need to do. As Arne said, this newsgroup will point 
you to basic documentation if that exists for basic questions such as yours.

It is a personal failing on your part, and a darned shame, "simplicity", that 
you cannot or will not observe the rudiments of basic human decency and 
understand your proper place here. We are all equals here; none of us is your 
subordinate, not that you should behave that way to subordinates either.

-- 
Lew

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#11979

On 2/11/2012 11:11 PM, Lew wrote:
> Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>> simplicity wrote:
>>> Lew wrote:
>>>> simplicity wrote:
>>>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>>>> shut.
>>>>
>>>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>>
>> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
>> in the group.
>
> "simplicity", you seriously need to get over yourself. This is not your
> personal, private little slave pool to offer answers to any questions you ask
> and take abuse from you. This is a Usenet *discussion* group, and any help you
> get is at the discretion and voluntary desire to help of the other
> participants.
>
> It is just too bad for you that you didn't find my answer helpful, but that is
> not any kind of excuse for your rudeness and ingratitude and downright
> snarkiness. You have no basis whatsoever for this arrogant attitude of
> entitlement you evince, nor have I done anything so rude as to merit the kind
> of personal attack in which you've engaged. The answers I gave are helpful to
> you, should you get down off your high horse to do the kind of studying and
> learning you so clearly need to do. As Arne said, this newsgroup will point
> you to basic documentation if that exists for basic questions such as yours.
>
> It is a personal failing on your part, and a darned shame, "simplicity", that
> you cannot or will not observe the rudiments of basic human decency and
> understand your proper place here. We are all equals here; none of us is your
> subordinate, not that you should behave that way to subordinates either.

Another bad day??

Arne

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#11964

On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
> >>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
> >>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
> >>> shut.
>
> >> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>
> > No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
> > asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
> > "RTFM" type.
>
> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.

Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
thing you would be a history before the day's end.

Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
for?

> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
> in the group.

Who are we to make ruling on "expectations in the group"?

We progress when we can build from what our predecessors accomplished.
Starting from zero and going through the same over and over - sort of
what Lew's suggested in his reply, is counter to this philosophy. And
when I read his latest post it makes me think tat he still does not
get it.

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#11966

simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> wrote:
  
> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
> for?

What an inane question. 

-- 
Leif Roar Moldskred

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#12012

On 2/11/2012 10:36 PM, Leif Roar Moldskred wrote:
> simplicity<stella_pigeon@live.ca>  wrote:
>
>> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
>> for?
>
> What an inane question.
>

The biggest relevant difference is that, in this forum, nobody is
required to answer any given question.

If I don't feel like answering a particular question, I just hit "next",
and don't get into any trouble for doing so. Doing that to a question
from a colleague when working could cause problems.

Patricia

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#11978

On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>> On 2/11/2012 4:17 PM, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> On Feb 10, 2:11 pm, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com>    wrote:
>>>> On Friday, February 10, 2012 11:48:13 AM UTC-8, simplicity wrote:
>>>>> "Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>>>>> whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>>>>> shut.
>>
>>>> So you're saying that reading the documentation is not a good idea?
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.

No.

The one asking the question would be history.

Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
people.

If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job - it is
the managers responsibility to get that person out.

>> If the level of the question is below what is the expectation
>> in the group.
>
> Who are we to make ruling on "expectations in the group"?

That is a collective somewhat fuzzy decision.

BTW, I believe that it comp.lang.java.help has set the bar
significant lower than comp.lang.java.programmer about
what is OK to ask and what people should RTFM.

Arne

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#11996

On Feb 12, 7:37 am, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
> > Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> > in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> > thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>
> No.
>
> The one asking the question would be history.
>
> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
> people.

In the "normal" development team some 60% of people are junior level.
I don't know what it may mean to you but for me "junior" means "do not
expect me to know everything".

> If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
> rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job

In the team environments it is. And actually nothing counts more than
that.

> - it is
> the managers responsibility to get that person out.

Big words for a small problem. You will deny someone 30 second (or 10
minutes for that matter) of your time and expose that person to
disciplinary measures in the name of "doing that persons job"? Did I
get it correctly?

Why don't you just call things as they are? In this case it is that
usenet forums like this sometime attract people whose main objective
is to enhance their self perception, from the safety of their homes
and often anonymously.

Anyway, personally I think that the attitude which you seem to justify
and defend sucks. OTOH, I know that it is unlikely for it to change as
the result of this exchange. Hence, "over and out".

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#11998

On 2/12/2012 2:04 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 12, 7:37 am, Arne Vajhøj<a...@vajhoej.dk>  wrote:
>> On 2/12/2012 1:14 AM, simplicity wrote:
>>> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
>>> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
>>> thing you would be a history before the day's end.
>>
>> No.
>>
>> The one asking the question would be history.
>>
>> Companies also have some expectations of the skill level of their
>> people.
>
> In the "normal" development team some 60% of people are junior level.
> I don't know what it may mean to you but for me "junior" means "do not
> expect me to know everything".

I would definitely expect the 60% most junior of team to know
something.

But even if you were right then it is irrelevant.

We are not claiming that there are no groups with zero expectations - we
are just claiming that there are groups with some expectation.

To use the job analogy we are claiming that there are position where
skills are expected.

>> If someone does not meet those requirements, then it is not the
>> rest of the employees responsibility to do that persons job
>
> In the team environments it is.

No. That is a misunderstanding of team environment. It is not
benefiting anyone that the team covers for a team member
that are not capable of doing the job.


>> - it is
>> the managers responsibility to get that person out.
>
> Big words for a small problem. You will deny someone 30 second (or 10
> minutes for that matter) of your time and expose that person to
> disciplinary measures in the name of "doing that persons job"? Did I
> get it correctly?

You are missing the point. If someone does not have the competence, then
then it is not one question but ten or twenty questions every day until
the manager finally figures it out and kick the person out anyway.

> Why don't you just call things as they are? In this case it is that
> usenet forums like this sometime attract people whose main objective
> is to enhance their self perception, from the safety of their homes
> and often anonymously.

Well - you post under anonymity while I post under my name, so
I will assume you are talking about yourself.

Arne

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#12011

simplicity <stella_pigeon@live.ca> writes:
> On Feb 11, 3:58 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:

>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.

> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I

An RTFM answer is often a good one when it points to the right FM.
Why quote a snippet from the documents, when the person with the problem
can read it straight from the source and at the same time have more
context than what would be reasonable to quote?

-- 
Jukka Lahtinen

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#12025

On 12/02/2012 06:14, simplicity wrote:
>>
>>> No. What I am saying is that, in the professional world, question
>>> asked, any question for that matter, mandates answer different than
>>> "RTFM" type.
>>
>> Occasionally RTFM is the best answer.
>
> Disagreed. Just ask yourself this question: how long would you survive
> in the organization if you gave your colleague the "RTFM answer"? I
> thing you would be a history before the day's end.

You mean:

Joe: Hey Sue what's Jeremy's phone number?

Sue: I can't recall it at the moment, it's in the company phone book, 
the blue book over there by your elbow.

Boss: Sue, get your coat!


> Why would this forum be any different than the organization we work
> for?

Pay, contracts, personal face-to-face relationships with work-colleagues.

Basically, my boss won't fire me for not helping some random stranger in 
a different part of the planet (more likely the opposite).

I help random strangers because I enjoy helping people and sharing 
ideas. If they make that unpleasant, I don't.

-- 
RGB

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#11935

On Fri, 10 Feb 2012 11:48:13 -0800 (PST), simplicity
<stella_pigeon@live.ca> wrote:

>"Go do your research" is a typical response of a clueless buffoon
>whose only characteristic is that he/she cannot keep his/her mouth
>shut.
Lew may sometimes be irritating, but he is far from clueless.
Buffoon?  I don't know, I've never seen his comedy act.  Have you?

rossum

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#11942

On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
> On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com>  wrote:
>> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.

If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
more Java.

HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.

> Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
> and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.

Agreed.

Arne

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#11948

On Feb 11, 1:14 pm, Arne Vajhøj <a...@vajhoej.dk> wrote:
> On 2/10/2012 2:48 PM, simplicity wrote:
>
> > On Feb 10, 10:29 am, Lew<lewbl...@gmail.com>  wrote:
> >> You must provide the dependencies *at run-time*.
>
> > Didn't I say that I know WHAT is causing it? I thought I did. What I
> > do not know is WHY and HOW to fix it.
>
> If WHY is the question, then you certainly need to study some
> more Java.

Correct. I am extremely rarely involved in projects requiring Java.
This one is a one-off prototype to see if our toolkit can integrate
with a Java in a browser. I did most of it after looking into docs and
examples from the web: sample applet itself, Java to native interface,
java policies. Unfortunately I tripped on one of the most trivial
steps in the project - everything worked fine in Eclipse and
appletviewer but broke when the same was loaded into a browser.

BTW, didn't it happen to you that you suddenly got the WHY part after
someone showed you the HOW aspect? It did to me on countless
occasions. Just as it did in this case... :-).

>
> HOW to fix it was already answered by someone else.

And I expressed my appreciation to him. About a minute of Knute's
typing saved me possibly hours of searching. Big and measurable
difference from Lew's "RTFM, stupid!!!" type of response.

>
> > Anyway, thanks for your time you spent typing your response. Sorry to
> > state it to you though that it is useless. I always DO my research and
> > if I decide to go public with questions it means I did not find the
> > answer myself. I suppose the same applies to majority of folks here
> > and my advise to you is: give people a bit of a slack.
>
> Agreed.

The purpose of the forum like this is to help each other, not to bash
people. Lew with his attitude is definitely in the wrong place.

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