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generics puzzle

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  generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-17 10:41 +0000
    Re: generics puzzle Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-10-17 13:14 +0100
      Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-17 15:14 +0100
      Re: generics puzzle markspace <-@.> - 2011-10-17 07:33 -0700
        Re: generics puzzle Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-10-17 16:26 +0100
          Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 14:48 +0000
        Re: generics puzzle Andreas Leitgeb <avl@gamma.logic.tuwien.ac.at> - 2011-10-17 15:36 +0000
      Re: generics puzzle Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-10-17 08:58 -0700
        Re: generics puzzle Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-10-18 10:45 +0100
          Re: generics puzzle Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-10-18 09:42 -0700
            Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:25 +0000
              Re: generics puzzle Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-10-19 10:04 -0700
                Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 14:14 +0000
                  Re: generics puzzle Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2011-10-20 11:11 -0700
    Re: generics puzzle Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-17 09:12 -0700
      Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 14:49 +0000
        Re: generics puzzle Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-18 18:27 +0200
          Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 17:45 +0000
            Re: generics puzzle Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-18 22:15 +0200
            Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-18 18:59 -0700
              Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:28 +0000
                Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 17:21 -0700
                  Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:27 +0000
                    Re: generics puzzle Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2011-10-21 20:34 +0200
                      Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-22 18:50 +0000
                        Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-22 21:02 +0100
                          Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 07:04 +0000
                            Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 23:25 -0700
                            Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-26 21:56 +0100
                              Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-27 08:59 +0000
                            eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-29 17:05 +0000
                              Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle) Four of Seventeen <fseventeen@gmail.com> - 2011-10-29 19:49 -0700
                                Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle) blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-31 11:17 +0000
                                  Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle) Four of Seventeen <fseventeen@gmail.com> - 2011-10-31 05:39 -0700
                    Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 01:30 -0700
                      Re: generics puzzle Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 08:56 -0700
                        Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-24 02:46 -0700
                      Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 07:05 +0000
                        Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-25 23:29 -0700
                          Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-31 11:14 +0000
                            Re: generics puzzle Four of Seventeen <fseventeen@gmail.com> - 2011-10-31 05:34 -0700
            Re: generics puzzle markspace <-@.> - 2011-10-18 21:21 -0700
              Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:29 +0000
                Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-20 17:22 -0700
                  Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:28 +0000
                Re: generics puzzle Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-10-21 06:22 -0300
                  Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:29 +0000
                  Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 01:20 -0700
                    Re: generics puzzle Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2011-10-23 09:51 +0000
                      Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-23 03:28 -0700
                        Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-23 15:59 +0100
                          Re: generics puzzle Eight of Seventeen <eights17@gmail.com> - 2011-10-24 02:46 -0700
                      Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-23 15:55 +0100
              Re: generics puzzle Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-10-20 21:00 +0100
            Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-19 13:26 +0000
              Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-11-25 17:46 +0000
            Re: generics puzzle Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-10-21 05:57 -0300
              Re: generics puzzle blmblm@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> - 2011-10-21 16:28 +0000

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#8994

In article <4df92aca-c98c-40da-9adb-5deed8dbda98@m4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
Eight of Seventeen  <eights17@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 18, 1:45 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > (About tools -- I'm a long-time vim user, more than a little
> > fanatical about my text editor of choice, but more and more for
> > Java code I find myself also starting Eclipse to do some of the
> > things *it* does well, and finding more and more things in that
> > category -- automatic generation of imports and boilerplate code,
> > renaming of classes, etc.)
> 
> Ah. Progress at last.

"At last"?  

> Though I did notice some kooky recommendations about "screen" in
> another thread. Did you really say you liked it for its providing a
> somewhat-broken, but maybe somewhat-usable, implementation of cross-
> app cut and paste? 

One of the things I like about it is that it provides a mechanism
for cut and paste, yes.  Why do you call it "somewhat-broken"?

(Be advised that I'm talking about the GNU version of "screen",
not the non-GNU version, which I haven't used in a while but
which I seem to remember as having fewer features and little if
any documentation.)

> When, of course, graphical apps have had working
> universal clipboards for, well, forever, 

For suitable values of "forever" ....  And I sometimes find it 
somehow soothing to work in a non-graphical environment.  YMMV.

> that aren't limited to one
> screenful at a time 

The cut-and-paste provided by "screen" is not limited to one
screenful at a time.

> and aren't likely to capture crud like
> foo^]]E^]]D^Hquux ...

I have no idea what that "crud like ...." phrase is meant to convey;
it doesn't resemble anything I've observed happening with "screen".

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9060

On Oct 19, 9:28 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> In article <4df92aca-c98c-40da-9adb-5deed8dbd...@m4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > On Oct 18, 1:45 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > (About tools -- I'm a long-time vim user, more than a little
> > > fanatical about my text editor of choice, but more and more for
> > > Java code I find myself also starting Eclipse to do some of the
> > > things *it* does well, and finding more and more things in that
> > > category -- automatic generation of imports and boilerplate code,
> > > renaming of classes, etc.)
>
> > Ah. Progress at last.
>
> "At last"?

Yes. After years of your promoting primitive text-mode tools as
purportedly superior to everything else, you have begun to see the
light regarding at least 1 GUI app.

> > Though I did notice some kooky recommendations about "screen" in
> > another thread. Did you really say you liked it for its providing a
> > somewhat-broken, but maybe somewhat-usable, implementation of cross-
> > app cut and paste?
>
> One of the things I like about it is that it provides a mechanism
> for cut and paste, yes.  Why do you call it "somewhat-broken"?

Well, since it's not a true application-integrated clipboard, it's
necessarily going to be limited, basically to what the app's currently
displaying at one time. You won't be able to go into a screen-oriented
editor and start a selection, go down two pages, end the selection
there, and copy. The "screen" program will only see a maximum of one
page at a time. With a line-oriented editor and a backscroll buffer of
some sort you could get more, except, well, line-oriented editor.
Bletch!

> (Be advised that I'm talking about the GNU version of "screen",
> not the non-GNU version, which I haven't used in a while but
> which I seem to remember as having fewer features and little if
> any documentation.)

There're two of them? And they didn't think to give them distinct
names? Typical.

> > that aren't limited to one
> > screenful at a time
>
> The cut-and-paste provided by "screen" is not limited to one
> screenful at a time.

If the underlying app is screen-oriented then it must be. There'd be
no way for "screen" to know about scrolling or selections in that app,
and selections in itself will be limited to the current contents of
the app's display, and scrolling in itself won't work with screen-
oriented underlying apps.

> > and aren't likely to capture crud like
> > foo^]]E^]]D^Hquux ...
>
> I have no idea what that "crud like ...." phrase is meant to convey;
> it doesn't resemble anything I've observed happening with "screen".

Well, the only other way to make "screen"'s clipboard work, besides to
copy parts of the app's display output, is to copy either parts of the
app's raw output or its input. But the latter two will be full of
escape and control characters, at least in the case where the app is
screen-oriented, which will then tend to print like the garbage above.

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#9072

In article <a01cc06f-7f35-40eb-a2bd-6b19735d97ad@o19g2000vbk.googlegroups.com>,
Eight of Seventeen  <eights17@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 19, 9:28 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <4df92aca-c98c-40da-9adb-5deed8dbd...@m4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> > Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > On Oct 18, 1:45 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > (About tools -- I'm a long-time vim user, more than a little
> > > > fanatical about my text editor of choice, but more and more for
> > > > Java code I find myself also starting Eclipse to do some of the
> > > > things *it* does well, and finding more and more things in that
> > > > category -- automatic generation of imports and boilerplate code,
> > > > renaming of classes, etc.)
> >
> > > Ah. Progress at last.
> >
> > "At last"?
> 
> Yes. After years of your promoting primitive text-mode tools as
> purportedly superior to everything else, you have begun to see the
> light regarding at least 1 GUI app.

If I could find a text-mode tool that did as much as Eclipse did I'd
probably use it.  What I like about Eclipse is not its interface --
I find it cluttered and not as keyboard-drivable as I like -- but
its features.

(You're starting to sound rather familiar, but I don't recognize the
name you're using.  Have you used another name to post here?)

(And I decline to take the flamebait I think is implicit in "promoting"
and "purportedly superior".)

> > > Though I did notice some kooky recommendations about "screen" in
> > > another thread. Did you really say you liked it for its providing a
> > > somewhat-broken, but maybe somewhat-usable, implementation of cross-
> > > app cut and paste?
> >
> > One of the things I like about it is that it provides a mechanism
> > for cut and paste, yes.  Why do you call it "somewhat-broken"?
> 
> Well, since it's not a true application-integrated clipboard, it's
> necessarily going to be limited, basically to what the app's currently
> displaying at one time. You won't be able to go into a screen-oriented
> editor and start a selection, go down two pages, end the selection
> there, and copy. 

There is that.  I guess this is something that doesn't come up that
often for me; if I'm cutting and pasting large blocks of text I'm
more apt to be doing it entirely from vim.  It is somewhat annoying
to have to mentally switch gears between "screen" cut and paste and
vim cut and paste, but -- <shrug>.

> The "screen" program will only see a maximum of one
> page at a time. With a line-oriented editor and a backscroll buffer of
> some sort you could get more, except, well, line-oriented editor.
> Bletch!

Ooh, there's an idea ....  :-)

> > (Be advised that I'm talking about the GNU version of "screen",
> > not the non-GNU version, which I haven't used in a while but
> > which I seem to remember as having fewer features and little if
> > any documentation.)
> 
> There're two of them? And they didn't think to give them distinct
> names? Typical.

You hadn't noticed that a lot of the traditional-UNIX tools have
multiple implementations, and the GNU implementations are apt to
have more features?

> > > that aren't limited to one
> > > screenful at a time
> >
> > The cut-and-paste provided by "screen" is not limited to one
> > screenful at a time.
> 
> If the underlying app is screen-oriented then it must be. 

And if not, not.  "screen" maintains an output buffer that can be
scrolled through, and cutting and pasting from *that* isn't limited
to a screenful.

> There'd be
> no way for "screen" to know about scrolling or selections in that app,
> and selections in itself will be limited to the current contents of
> the app's display, and scrolling in itself won't work with screen-
> oriented underlying apps.
> 
> > > and aren't likely to capture crud like
> > > foo^]]E^]]D^Hquux ...
> >
> > I have no idea what that "crud like ...." phrase is meant to convey;
> > it doesn't resemble anything I've observed happening with "screen".
> 
> Well, the only other way to make "screen"'s clipboard work, besides to
> copy parts of the app's display output, 

I'm inclined to think, based on observation, that this is what it's
doing.

> is to copy either parts of the
> app's raw output or its input. But the latter two will be full of
> escape and control characters, at least in the case where the app is
> screen-oriented, which will then tend to print like the garbage above.

Just out of curiosity, how much experience do you have with this
tool you're critiquing?

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9076

On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

> If I could find a text-mode tool that did as much as Eclipse did I'd
> probably use it.  What I like about Eclipse is not its interface --
> I find it cluttered and not as keyboard-drivable as I like -- but
> its features.

Hm...  I use keyboard shortcuts in Eclipse excessively.  What are you 
missing?

Kind regards

	robert

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#9091

In article <9gdsa6FpohU1@mid.individual.net>,
Robert Klemme  <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> 
> > If I could find a text-mode tool that did as much as Eclipse did I'd
> > probably use it.  What I like about Eclipse is not its interface --
> > I find it cluttered and not as keyboard-drivable as I like -- but
> > its features.
> 
> Hm...  I use keyboard shortcuts in Eclipse excessively.  What are you 
> missing?
> 

Taking the question literally -- probably mostly a willingness to
appreciate this tool's strengths and not be too critical when it
behaves in some way that goes against my admittedly non-mainstream
preferences.  Sort of a :-).  Back to the point, though:

First I should probably say that my notion of "as keyboard-drivable
as I like" is "can do everything from the keyboard", which is a
fairly high bar.  I've mentally bookmarked a lot of Eclipse's
keyboard shortcuts, and they make my experience of using this
tool much more pleasant, but there are still a few things ....
Examples that come to mind:

If I do a "synchronize with repository" operation and let Eclipse
switch to the CVS perspective or view or whatever it is (I have
trouble remembering which of those is which), I haven't figured
out how to easily get back to the "normal" (Java) view, other
than clicking a little ">>" button near the upper right corner
to display a list of other whatever-they-are.  I did find a
keyboard shortcut (control-f8 IIRC) that *seemed* like it would
do what I want, but I can't seem to make it work.  I could be
mistaken.

I think I did come across a way to set and clear debugging
breakpoints from the keyboard, but I didn't mentally bookmark it,
and trying to find it again ....  well, I haven't.

In other words -- picky little stuff, possibly solvable with more
work on my part.  What I said, or implied, about starting with
a better attitude ....

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9094

On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

> In article <9gdsa6FpohU1@mid.individual.net>,
> Robert Klemme  <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
>> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
>>
>>> If I could find a text-mode tool that did as much as Eclipse did I'd 
>>> probably use it.  What I like about Eclipse is not its interface -- I 
>>> find it cluttered and not as keyboard-drivable as I like -- but its 
>>> features.
>>
>> Hm...  I use keyboard shortcuts in Eclipse excessively.  What are you 
>> missing?
>
> Taking the question literally -- probably mostly a willingness to 
> appreciate this tool's strengths and not be too critical when it behaves 
> in some way that goes against my admittedly non-mainstream preferences. 
> Sort of a :-).  Back to the point, though:
>
> First I should probably say that my notion of "as keyboard-drivable as I 
> like" is "can do everything from the keyboard", which is a fairly high 
> bar.  I've mentally bookmarked a lot of Eclipse's keyboard shortcuts, 
> and they make my experience of using this tool much more pleasant, but 
> there are still a few things .... Examples that come to mind:
>
> If I do a "synchronize with repository" operation and let Eclipse switch 
> to the CVS perspective or view or whatever it is (I have trouble 
> remembering which of those is which), I haven't figured out how to 
> easily get back to the "normal" (Java) view, other than clicking a 
> little ">>" button near the upper right corner to display a list of 
> other whatever-they-are.  I did find a keyboard shortcut (control-f8 
> IIRC) that *seemed* like it would do what I want, but I can't seem to 
> make it work.  I could be mistaken.
>
> I think I did come across a way to set and clear debugging breakpoints 
> from the keyboard, but I didn't mentally bookmark it, and trying to find 
> it again ....  well, I haven't.

The key thing (har har) to know is that all Eclipse's key bindings are 
configurable, and that there are a great many commands it has which do not 
have bindings by default.

My pet hate is that there are no keystrokes for the 'extract constant' and 
'extract parameter' refactorings. It's not long after i sit down with an 
unfamiliar Eclipse that i find myself binding them to the otherwise unused 
alt-shift-K and alt-shift-P combinations (fitting neatly into the 
alt-shift family, which operates the other refactorings).

You can examine and configure the key bindings in the 'Keys' page in the 
preferences. Which you can reach without the mouse by typing the keystroke 
to open the preferences window (command-, on the Mac; can't remember what 
it is on Linux), then typing 'keys' and hitting return. The textbox at the 
top of the page lets you search for commands by name; i don't think 
there's a way to search by keystroke. You can then see what's bound, and 
add bindings for things which aren't. There's a little window which shows 
you any conflicts with bindings you add. You can set the context in which 
they keystroke is bound; i believe 'In Windows' means it's bound 
everywhere.

From this, i can see that, on the Mac, command-F8 selects the next 
perspective, and shift-command-F8 the previous one. There are a set of 
'Show Perspective (foo)' commands for all the perspectives (do not be 
seduced by the commands called simply 'Java' and 'Java Browsing' - they 
are false idols). On my machine, command-F1 to command-F6 are not bound 
(in Eclipse), so they could be used.

Toggle breakpoint is command-shift-B. Open breakpoint properties (but only 
when in the breakpoints view) is option-return.

tom

-- 
The sky above the port was the colour of television, tuned to a dead
channel

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#9162

In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4024@urchin.earth.li>,
Tom Anderson  <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> 
> > In article <9gdsa6FpohU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > Robert Klemme  <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> >> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

[ snip ]

> > If I do a "synchronize with repository" operation and let Eclipse switch 
> > to the CVS perspective or view or whatever it is (I have trouble 
> > remembering which of those is which), I haven't figured out how to 
> > easily get back to the "normal" (Java) view, other than clicking a 
> > little ">>" button near the upper right corner to display a list of 
> > other whatever-they-are.  I did find a keyboard shortcut (control-f8 
> > IIRC) that *seemed* like it would do what I want, but I can't seem to 
> > make it work.  I could be mistaken.
> >
> > I think I did come across a way to set and clear debugging breakpoints 
> > from the keyboard, but I didn't mentally bookmark it, and trying to find 
> > it again ....  well, I haven't.
> 
> The key thing (har har) to know is that all Eclipse's key bindings are 
> configurable, and that there are a great many commands it has which do not 
> have bindings by default.

Yes, that sounds vaguely familiar ....

> My pet hate is that there are no keystrokes for the 'extract constant' and 
> 'extract parameter' refactorings. It's not long after i sit down with an 
> unfamiliar Eclipse that i find myself binding them to the otherwise unused 
> alt-shift-K and alt-shift-P combinations (fitting neatly into the 
> alt-shift family, which operates the other refactorings).
> 
> You can examine and configure the key bindings in the 'Keys' page in the 
> preferences. Which you can reach without the mouse by typing the keystroke 
> to open the preferences window (command-, on the Mac; can't remember what 
> it is on Linux), 

Maybe not bound to a key combination on my system -- at least I
didn't find one.

> then typing 'keys' and hitting return. 

Ooh.  Now that trick I did not know about.  (I had been navigating
to Keys and -- click, ick.  :-)  )

> The textbox at the 
> top of the page lets you search for commands by name; i don't think 
> there's a way to search by keystroke. You can then see what's bound, and 
> add bindings for things which aren't. There's a little window which shows 
> you any conflicts with bindings you add. You can set the context in which 
> they keystroke is bound; i believe 'In Windows' means it's bound 
> everywhere.

> From this, i can see that, on the Mac, command-F8 selects the next 
> perspective, and shift-command-F8 the previous one. 

Yes, this is the one (s/command/control/ for Linux) I remembered ....  
Huh.  I just tried it again, and it worked.  What I'm vaguely
remembering is that it sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't,
and I couldn't figure out why, and gave up.  Huh.

> There are a set of 
> 'Show Perspective (foo)' commands for all the perspectives (do not be 
> seduced by the commands called simply 'Java' and 'Java Browsing' - they 
> are false idols). On my machine, command-F1 to command-F6 are not bound 
> (in Eclipse), so they could be used.
>
> Toggle breakpoint is command-shift-B. Open breakpoint properties (but only 
> when in the breakpoints view) is option-return.

Huh.  That does sound vaguely familiar, and it's what the "Keys"
preferences page says too (though s/command/control/), but when 
I try using this key combination in an editor window, it inserts
a 'B'.  

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9196

On Oct 25, 3:04 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Tom Anderson  <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> > then typing 'keys' and hitting return.
>
> Ooh.  Now that trick I did not know about.  (I had been navigating
> to Keys and -- click, ick.  :-)  )

And there it is again. That peculiar mouse allergy that seems to be an
unpleasant side effect of chronic Unix exposure.

Does the mouse work much more poorly in X than in "real" Windows,
perhaps, leading to a lifelong aversion?

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#9216

On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:

> In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4024@urchin.earth.li>,
> Tom Anderson  <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
>
>> Toggle breakpoint is command-shift-B. Open breakpoint properties (but 
>> only when in the breakpoints view) is option-return.
>
> Huh.  That does sound vaguely familiar, and it's what the "Keys" 
> preferences page says too (though s/command/control/), but when I try 
> using this key combination in an editor window, it inserts a 'B'.

Hmm. It's either bound to a subtly wrong context, or you have biscuit 
crumbs stuck under the control keycap.

tom

-- 
The art of medicine consists in amusing the patient while nature cures
the disease. -- Voltaire

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#9236

In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110262154330.11335@urchin.earth.li>,
Tom Anderson  <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Oct 2011, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> 
> > In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4024@urchin.earth.li>,
> > Tom Anderson  <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> >
> >> Toggle breakpoint is command-shift-B. Open breakpoint properties (but 
> >> only when in the breakpoints view) is option-return.
> >
> > Huh.  That does sound vaguely familiar, and it's what the "Keys" 
> > preferences page says too (though s/command/control/), but when I try 
> > using this key combination in an editor window, it inserts a 'B'.
> 
> Hmm. It's either bound to a subtly wrong context, or you have biscuit 
> crumbs stuck under the control keycap.

The latter explanation, taken literally, is pretty unlikely, and
in any case the control key seems to work okay in other contexts.
The entry in the "Keys" preferences page has

  Command "Toggle breakpoint"

  Binding "Shift+Ctrl+B"

  When "In Windows"

  Category "Run/Debug"

  User ""

Huh.  Another mystery, maybe.  

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9297 — eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle)

In article <9gn5bfFmomU2@mid.individual.net>,
blmblm@myrealbox.com  <blmblm.myrealbox@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4024@urchin.earth.li>,
> Tom Anderson  <twic@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> > 
> > > In article <9gdsa6FpohU1@mid.individual.net>,
> > > Robert Klemme  <shortcutter@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > >> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blmblm@myrealbox.com wrote:
> 
> [ snip ]
> 
> > > If I do a "synchronize with repository" operation and let Eclipse switch 
> > > to the CVS perspective or view or whatever it is (I have trouble 
> > > remembering which of those is which), I haven't figured out how to 
> > > easily get back to the "normal" (Java) view, other than clicking a 
> > > little ">>" button near the upper right corner to display a list of 
> > > other whatever-they-are.  I did find a keyboard shortcut (control-f8 
> > > IIRC) that *seemed* like it would do what I want, but I can't seem to 
> > > make it work.  I could be mistaken.

[ snip ]

> > From this, i can see that, on the Mac, command-F8 selects the next 
> > perspective, and shift-command-F8 the previous one. 
> 
> Yes, this is the one (s/command/control/ for Linux) I remembered ....  
> Huh.  I just tried it again, and it worked.  What I'm vaguely
> remembering is that it sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't,
> and I couldn't figure out why, and gave up.  Huh.

Curiouser and curiouser ....

Apparently indeed sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
On a quick test -- invoke "synchronize with repository" from the
context menu, let it switch to the CVS perspective, then switch
back to the Java perspective -- control-F8 works as desired.
However, recently I switched to the CVS perspective, did some
things (reviewed changes and committed them), and tried to switch
back to the Java perspective, and ....  Nothing.  control-F8 did
nothing, and neither did control-F7.  I did discover that there's
a Navigate submenu under Window that offers a "next perspective"
option, and *that* works, and it can be done from the keyboard,
which is good to know.

But "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" is a bit --
puzzling?  bothersome?

[ snip ]

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9308 — Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle)

On Oct 29, 1:05 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> In article <9gn5bfFmo...@mid.individual.net>,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> blm...@myrealbox.com  <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4...@urchin.earth.li>,
> > Tom Anderson  <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> > > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, blm...@myrealbox.com wrote:
>
> > > > In article <9gdsa6Fpo...@mid.individual.net>,
> > > > Robert Klemme  <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > >> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blm...@myrealbox.com wrote:
>
> > [ snip ]
>
> > > > If I do a "synchronize with repository" operation and let Eclipse switch
> > > > to the CVS perspective or view or whatever it is (I have trouble
> > > > remembering which of those is which), I haven't figured out how to
> > > > easily get back to the "normal" (Java) view, other than clicking a
> > > > little ">>" button near the upper right corner to display a list of
> > > > other whatever-they-are.  I did find a keyboard shortcut (control-f8
> > > > IIRC) that *seemed* like it would do what I want, but I can't seem to
> > > > make it work.  I could be mistaken.
>
> [ snip ]
>
> > > From this, i can see that, on the Mac, command-F8 selects the next
> > > perspective, and shift-command-F8 the previous one.
>
> > Yes, this is the one (s/command/control/ for Linux) I remembered ....  
> > Huh.  I just tried it again, and it worked.  What I'm vaguely
> > remembering is that it sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't,
> > and I couldn't figure out why, and gave up.  Huh.
>
> Curiouser and curiouser ....
>
> Apparently indeed sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
> On a quick test -- invoke "synchronize with repository" from the
> context menu, let it switch to the CVS perspective, then switch
> back to the Java perspective -- control-F8 works as desired.
> However, recently I switched to the CVS perspective, did some
> things (reviewed changes and committed them), and tried to switch
> back to the Java perspective, and ....  Nothing.  control-F8 did
> nothing, and neither did control-F7.  I did discover that there's
> a Navigate submenu under Window that offers a "next perspective"
> option, and *that* works, and it can be done from the keyboard,
> which is good to know.
>
> But "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" is a bit --
> puzzling?  bothersome?

Now you know how the rest of us feel when we try to use vi or emacs
and things behave ... strangely, and change in unpredictable-to-us
ways, like, say, "enter" in emacs sometimes inserting a newline into
the displayed text but sometimes acting more like clicking a link in a
web browser. :)

I'm not sure if this results from "trying to do everything with the
keyboard, instead of using the keyboard for keyboardy things like
entering text and the mouse for mousy things like long-range
navigation and issuing commands" or from "trying to cram every kind of
application feature from every kind of application into one text
editor input pane" or both, though. :)

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#9323 — Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle)

In article <687364c8-7a95-4a8a-b459-38fed6780b8a@j20g2000vby.googlegroups.com>,
Four of Seventeen  <fseventeen@gmail.com> wrote:

(Are you related to that Eight of Seventeen fellow?  Huh.)

> On Oct 29, 1:05 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <9gn5bfFmo...@mid.individual.net>,
> >
> > blm...@myrealbox.com  <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > In article <alpine.DEB.2.00.1110222039350.4...@urchin.earth.li>,
> > > Tom Anderson  <t...@urchin.earth.li> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, 22 Oct 2011, blm...@myrealbox.com wrote:
> >
> > > > > In article <9gdsa6Fpo...@mid.individual.net>,
> > > > > Robert Klemme  <shortcut...@googlemail.com> wrote:
> > > > >> On 10/21/2011 06:27 PM, blm...@myrealbox.com wrote:

[ snip ]

> > > > From this, i can see that, on the Mac, command-F8 selects the next
> > > > perspective, and shift-command-F8 the previous one.
> >
> > > Yes, this is the one (s/command/control/ for Linux) I remembered ....  
> > > Huh.  I just tried it again, and it worked.  What I'm vaguely
> > > remembering is that it sometimes it did and sometimes it didn't,
> > > and I couldn't figure out why, and gave up.  Huh.
> >
> > Curiouser and curiouser ....
> >
> > Apparently indeed sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
> > On a quick test -- invoke "synchronize with repository" from the
> > context menu, let it switch to the CVS perspective, then switch
> > back to the Java perspective -- control-F8 works as desired.
> > However, recently I switched to the CVS perspective, did some
> > things (reviewed changes and committed them), and tried to switch
> > back to the Java perspective, and ....  Nothing.  control-F8 did
> > nothing, and neither did control-F7.  I did discover that there's
> > a Navigate submenu under Window that offers a "next perspective"
> > option, and *that* works, and it can be done from the keyboard,
> > which is good to know.
> >
> > But "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" is a bit --
> > puzzling?  bothersome?
> 
> Now you know how the rest of us feel when we try to use vi or emacs
> and things behave ... strangely, and change in unpredictable-to-us
> ways, like, say, "enter" in emacs sometimes inserting a newline into
> the displayed text but sometimes acting more like clicking a link in a
> web browser. :)

People are sometimes perplexed by the behavior of tools they don't
understand very well.  Was that your point?  It doesn't seem very
newsworthy.

However, it seems to me that someone who understands the tool well
should be able to explain the behavior that the novice-to-intermediate
user finds perplexing.  I'm fairly sure an emacs expert could explain 
the behavior you describe.  Perhaps at some point an Eclipse expert
will be along to explain the behavior I describe.

> I'm not sure if this results from "trying to do everything with the
> keyboard, instead of using the keyboard for keyboardy things like
> entering text and the mouse for mousy things like long-range
> navigation and issuing commands" or from "trying to cram every kind of
> application feature from every kind of application into one text
> editor input pane" or both, though. :)

Because of course what you describe can't possibly be attributed to
PEBKAC, right?

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9325 — Re: eclipse shortcuts again (was Re: generics puzzle)

On Oct 31, 7:17 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Four of Seventeen  <fsevent...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> (Are you related to that Eight of Seventeen fellow?  Huh.)

We are Borg.

> > On Oct 29, 1:05 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > Apparently indeed sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't.
> > > On a quick test -- invoke "synchronize with repository" from the
> > > context menu, let it switch to the CVS perspective, then switch
> > > back to the Java perspective -- control-F8 works as desired.
> > > However, recently I switched to the CVS perspective, did some
> > > things (reviewed changes and committed them), and tried to switch
> > > back to the Java perspective, and ....  Nothing.  control-F8 did
> > > nothing, and neither did control-F7.  I did discover that there's
> > > a Navigate submenu under Window that offers a "next perspective"
> > > option, and *that* works, and it can be done from the keyboard,
> > > which is good to know.
>
> > > But "sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't" is a bit --
> > > puzzling?  bothersome?
>
> > Now you know how the rest of us feel when we try to use vi or emacs
> > and things behave ... strangely, and change in unpredictable-to-us
> > ways, like, say, "enter" in emacs sometimes inserting a newline into
> > the displayed text but sometimes acting more like clicking a link in a
> > web browser. :)
>
> People are sometimes perplexed by the behavior of tools they [implied
> insult deleted]

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

Though, that said, it is noteworthy that some tools seem to go out of
their way to be difficult for a novice user (even one who's a computer
expert in general and merely new to those particular tools) to
understand.

> However, it seems to me that someone who understands the tool well
> should be able to explain the behavior that the novice-to-intermediate
> user finds perplexing.

Obviously, when the novice-to-intermediate user (of that tool) finds
such explanations equally perplexing, illogical, or just plain wonky,
then the problems go deeper.

> I'm fairly sure an emacs expert could explain the behavior you describe.

I'm fairly sure a self-described emacs expert has tried, and failed.
Most likely the only explanation for the behavior I describe involves
an emacs developer, severe sleep deprivation, and one or more
psychopharmacological substances of questionable legality.

> Perhaps at some point an Eclipse expert will be along to explain the
> behavior I describe.

Probably. You will be assimilated. Resistance is futile.

> > I'm not sure if this results from "trying to do everything with the
> > keyboard, instead of using the keyboard for keyboardy things like
> > entering text and the mouse for mousy things like long-range
> > navigation and issuing commands" or from "trying to cram every kind of
> > application feature from every kind of application into one text
> > editor input pane" or both, though. :)
>
> Because of course what you describe can't possibly be attributed to
> PEBKAC, right?

Certainly not in my own case. Others' mileage may vary, of course.

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#9106

On Oct 21, 12:27 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 19, 9:28 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > In article <4df92aca-c98c-40da-9adb-5deed8dbd...@m4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> > > Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > > On Oct 18, 1:45 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > > > (About tools -- I'm a long-time vim user, more than a little
> > > > > fanatical about my text editor of choice, but more and more for
> > > > > Java code I find myself also starting Eclipse to do some of the
> > > > > things *it* does well, and finding more and more things in that
> > > > > category -- automatic generation of imports and boilerplate code,
> > > > > renaming of classes, etc.)
>
> > > > Ah. Progress at last.
>
> > > "At last"?
>
> > Yes. After years of your promoting primitive text-mode tools as
> > purportedly superior to everything else, you have begun to see the
> > light regarding at least 1 GUI app.
>
> If I could find a text-mode tool that did as much as Eclipse did I'd
> probably use it.

*sigh*

Stockholm syndrome?

I think we need someone in this thread that's better qualified to
diagnose things like that.

> What I like about Eclipse is not its interface --
> I find it cluttered and not as keyboard-drivable as I like

Beats being so bare-boned that when a new user looks at it the sole
thought to enter their head is "what the fuck do I do now?!". I'll
take slightly cluttered, but conducive to discovering the available
functionality (or, at the *very* least, discovering the goddamn help
and how to navigate and search it) anyday.

> (You're starting to sound rather familiar, but I don't recognize the
> name you're using.  Have you used another name to post here?)

Yes.

> (And I decline to take the flamebait I think is implicit in "promoting"
> and "purportedly superior".)

You consider the truth to be "flamebait"?

Interesting.

> > > One of the things I like about it is that it provides a mechanism
> > > for cut and paste, yes.  Why do you call it "somewhat-broken"?
>
> > Well, since it's not a true application-integrated clipboard, it's
> > necessarily going to be limited, basically to what the app's currently
> > displaying at one time. You won't be able to go into a screen-oriented
> > editor and start a selection, go down two pages, end the selection
> > there, and copy.
>
> There is that.  I guess this is something that doesn't come up that
> often for me; if I'm cutting and pasting large blocks of text I'm
> more apt to be doing it entirely from vim.

Which strategy stops working as soon as you want to cut from vim and
paste into a non-vim application, of course.

> It is somewhat annoying to have to mentally switch gears between "screen"
> cut and paste and vim cut and paste, but -- <shrug>.

Those of us using modern operating systems and user interfaces don't
have that problem, of course.

Interesting that you admit to finding it "somewhat" annoying, though.
Another sign of progress?

> > The "screen" program will only see a maximum of one
> > page at a time. With a line-oriented editor and a backscroll buffer of
> > some sort you could get more, except, well, line-oriented editor.
> > Bletch!
>
> Ooh, there's an idea ....  :-)

If I were a religious man, I'd be looking skyward and muttering
something about now.

> > > (Be advised that I'm talking about the GNU version of "screen",
> > > not the non-GNU version, which I haven't used in a while but
> > > which I seem to remember as having fewer features and little if
> > > any documentation.)
>
> > There're two of them? And they didn't think to give them distinct
> > names? Typical.
>
> You hadn't noticed that a lot of the traditional-UNIX tools have
> multiple implementations, and the GNU implementations are apt to
> have more features?

Of course. But they usually have changed names as well; cc -> gcc;
more -> less; yacc -> bison; and so forth.

> > If the underlying app is screen-oriented then it must be.
>
> And if not, not.  "screen" maintains an output buffer that can be
> scrolled through, and cutting and pasting from *that* isn't limited
> to a screenful.

If the app is not screen-oriented, then it is going to be incredibly
clumsy for editing purposes. If it is, any such buffer will either be
empty or chock-full of escape codes, either alternative of which will
spoil your day.

> > is to copy either parts of the
> > app's raw output or its input. But the latter two will be full of
> > escape and control characters, at least in the case where the app is
> > screen-oriented, which will then tend to print like the garbage above.
>
> Just out of curiosity, how much experience do you have with this
> tool you're critiquing?

A lot more than I would have if I had it all to do over again. ;)

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#9121

Eight of Seventeen wrote:
> *sigh*
> 
> Stockholm syndrome?
> 
> I think we need someone in this thread that's better qualified to
> diagnose things like that.

Plonk.

-- 
Lew

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#9142

On Oct 23, 11:56 am, Lew <lewbl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Eight of Seventeen wrote:
> > *sigh*
>
> > Stockholm syndrome?
>
> > I think we need someone in this thread that's better qualified to
> > diagnose things like that.
>
> [implied insult deleted].

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

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#9163

In article <345c79eb-ffb2-4c4f-84ae-f701a876f818@f11g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Eight of Seventeen  <eights17@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 21, 12:27 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 19, 9:28 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > > > In article <4df92aca-c98c-40da-9adb-5deed8dbd...@m4g2000yqm.googlegroups.com>,
> > > > Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:

[ snip ]

> > (You're starting to sound rather familiar, but I don't recognize the
> > name you're using.  Have you used another name to post here?)
> 
> Yes.

And judging by your response [1] to one of Lew's posts, I think I
know -- well, I'm not sure I'd be able to list all the names you've
used, but it appears that my guess about identity was correct.

[1] "None of the nasty things ...."

So, tempting though it might be to continue to try to explain
myself, and to correct some of your misimpressions about "screen",
experience [2] suggests that at most two people might actually be
interested in such a discussion, and it might easily expand into
something that would annoy other participants.  So I'll try to
resist temptation.

[2] Long-time readers may remember a previous discussion (and will
probably *not* be thanking anyone for the memories).

[ snip ]

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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#9195

On Oct 25, 3:05 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
wrote:
> In article <345c79eb-ffb2-4c4f-84ae-f701a876f...@f11g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
> Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Oct 21, 12:27 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> > > (You're starting to sound rather familiar, but I don't recognize the
> > > name you're using.  Have you used another name to post here?)
>
> > Yes.
>
> And judging by your response [1] to one of Lew's posts, I think I
> know -- well, I'm not sure I'd be able to list all the names you've
> used, but it appears that my guess about identity was correct.

What does that have to do with Java, screen, vi, or any of the other
topics of this thread?

> So, tempting though it might be to continue to try to explain
> myself, and [insult deleted]

No! None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

> experience [2] suggests that at most two people might actually be
> interested in such a discussion,

An unsubstantiated claim.

> and it might easily expand into something that would annoy other participants.
> So I'll try to resist temptation.
>
> [2] Long-time readers may remember a previous discussion (and [implied insult
> deleted]).

No. None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
are at all true.

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#9322

In article <01f981c3-bfdc-4beb-aa2d-0db589c5dccc@v15g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
Eight of Seventeen  <eights17@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Oct 25, 3:05 am, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> > In article <345c79eb-ffb2-4c4f-84ae-f701a876f...@f11g2000vbm.googlegroups.com>,
> > Eight of Seventeen  <eight...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > On Oct 21, 12:27 pm, blm...@myrealbox.com <blmblm.myreal...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:

[ snip ]

> > So, tempting though it might be to continue to try to explain
> > myself, and [insult deleted]
> 
> No! None of the nasty things that you have said or implied about me
> are at all true.
> 
> > experience [2] suggests that at most two people might actually be
> > interested in such a discussion,
> 
> An unsubstantiated claim.

s/suggests/suggests to me/ and it doesn't need substantiation.

Notice, however, that no one else seems to be clamoring for more
in this thread -- unless the lurkers are supporting you in e-mail.

[ snip ]

-- 
B. L. Massingill
ObDisclaimer:  I don't speak for my employers; they return the favor.

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