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Final Fantasy 2 based game source code

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  Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Turtle Wizard <elvishNOSPAM.healer@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 22:26 +0100
    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-19 18:49 -0700
      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-20 07:18 +0000
        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 20:28 +1100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Fredrik Jonson <fredrik@jonson.org> - 2013-03-20 13:34 +0000
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-20 12:07 -0700
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:26 -0400
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-21 08:11 +0000
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 20:58 +1100
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 12:29 -0700
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 20:34 +0000
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:56 -0400
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 15:24 -0700
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 09:18 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-22 07:15 -0300
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 13:54 +0000
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 10:25 -0700
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 18:14 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 13:22 -0700
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 20:26 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2013-03-22 13:32 -0700
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 21:39 +0000
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 08:50 +1100
                                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-22 23:26 +0100
                                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 09:39 +1100
                                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:15 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:12 -0400
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:08 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-23 10:59 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 15:33 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-22 10:19 -0500
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 16:57 +0000
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-22 14:07 -0500
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-22 20:09 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:31 -0400
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 08:54 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-23 23:01 -0500
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-24 10:04 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-24 17:07 -0300
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-25 09:19 +0000
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-25 09:26 +0000
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:49 -0400
                          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Chris Uppal" <chris.uppal@metagnostic.REMOVE-THIS.org> - 2013-03-23 11:12 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 15:24 +0000
                              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 16:21 +0000
                                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 17:10 +0000
                                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-03-23 18:27 +0000
                                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-23 18:51 +0000
                            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-03-23 22:00 -0300
                        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:19 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 14:12 +1100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 09:06 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 20:57 +1100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 10:42 +0000
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 22:11 +1100
                      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 11:53 +0000
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:58 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 13:51 +0000
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joshua Cranmer 🐧 <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2013-03-20 09:28 -0500
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 15:03 +0000
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:32 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 17:52 +0100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-20 17:43 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-21 10:01 +1100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code lipska the kat <"nospam at neversurrender dot co dot uk"> - 2013-03-21 08:35 +0000
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:35 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:18 -0400
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2013-03-22 18:00 -0600
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code "Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> - 2013-03-23 11:08 +1100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-22 20:26 -0400
        Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 12:41 +0100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code paul.cager@gmail.com - 2013-03-20 05:59 -0700
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 17:49 +0100
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-20 20:33 +0100
                Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-20 23:15 +0100
                  Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Lars Enderin <lars.enderin@telia.com> - 2013-03-21 00:11 +0100
                    Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-21 00:27 +0100
          Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-20 20:39 -0400
            Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2013-03-21 10:01 -0700
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-03-21 17:39 -0400
              Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code Joerg Meier <joergmmeier@arcor.de> - 2013-03-22 01:21 +0100
      Re: Final Fantasy 2 based game source code bubble <bubble@soft29.vub.ac.be> - 2013-03-24 14:16 +0000

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#23000

On 3/20/2013 10:28 AM, Joshua Cranmer 🐧 wrote:
> People remember negative emotions better than positive emotions. So,
> present your comments as a scathing critique, and it will be better
> remembered and applied in the future than a melancholy response. :-)

The idea that some pain helps remembering has been dropped
as a preferred learning methodology in most places.

I don't think it is that productive to go in let us call
it quarter-flame-mode in this case where somebody simply
posted a link to some code.

Just give the recommendations without the spicy
extra remarks.

If OP comes back and is rude in the reply, then we have
a new situation and I think setting the flame throwers
to max power is fine.

But I have not seen that in this thread.

Arne

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#22984

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:51:00 +0000, lipska the kat wrote:

> On 20/03/13 09:28, Qu0ll wrote:
>> "Fredrik Jonson" wrote in message
>> news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...

> [snip]

>> I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand
>> the heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that
>> analogy in the terms of software development.

> You are an idiot.

> [...]

> It is perfectly possible to offer good advice without all the personal 
> abuse, insults and snide remarks.

While it might be possible in general, it seems to be a skill you do not
possess yourself, making you something of a hypocrite.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#22985

On 20/03/13 16:52, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:51:00 +0000, lipska the kat wrote:
>
>> On 20/03/13 09:28, Qu0ll wrote:
>>> "Fredrik Jonson" wrote in message
>>> news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...
>
>> [snip]
>
>>> I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand
>>> the heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that
>>> analogy in the terms of software development.
>
>> You are an idiot.
>
>> [...]
>
>> It is perfectly possible to offer good advice without all the personal
>> abuse, insults and snide remarks.
>
> While it might be possible in general, it seems to be a skill you do not
> possess yourself, making you something of a hypocrite.

I wasn't offering advice was I?

I was making an observation.

There is a difference.

Here's some advice

The difference between advice and an observation is:

Giving advice often implies that you were asked for some in the first 
place. If you weren't then you need to ask yourself if your advice is 
wanted. You didn't ask for advice but I'm giving you some anyway as you 
seem to be having trouble discerning one from the other

Making an observation is independent of the immediate context and while 
context is important it need not be imperative.

Like the observation

"You are an idiot"

Simple huh?

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#22991

"lipska the kat"  wrote in message 
news:Wd-dnfkYkPzIaNTMnZ2dnUVZ7qednZ2d@bt.com...

[snip]

>Simple huh?
>
> lipska
>
> -- 
> Lipska the Kat©: Troll, sanity destroyer
> aka Paul

I corrected the typos in your sig for you :-)

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#23014

On 20/03/13 23:01, Qu0ll wrote:
> "lipska the kat" wrote in message
> news:Wd-dnfkYkPzIaNTMnZ2dnUVZ7qednZ2d@bt.com...
>
> [snip]
>
>> Simple huh?
>>
>> lipska
>>
>> --
>> Lipska the Kat©: Troll, sanity destroyer
>> aka Paul
>

I presume by 'Paul' you mean 'Paul Derbyshire'

http://lmddgtfy.net/?q=paul+derbyshire

Which one am I then?

BTW, even the lead Bloch apologist Vajhoj
agrees that he (Bloch) overstepped the mark this time.

lipska

-- 
Lipska the Kat©: Troll hunter, sandbox destroyer
and farscape dreamer of Aeryn Sun

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#23001

On 3/20/2013 1:43 PM, lipska the kat wrote:
> On 20/03/13 16:52, Joerg Meier wrote:
>> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 13:51:00 +0000, lipska the kat wrote:
>>
>>> On 20/03/13 09:28, Qu0ll wrote:
>>>> "Fredrik Jonson" wrote in message
>>>> news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...
>>
>>> [snip]
>>
>>>> I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand
>>>> the heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that
>>>> analogy in the terms of software development.
>>
>>> You are an idiot.
>>
>>> [...]
>>
>>> It is perfectly possible to offer good advice without all the personal
>>> abuse, insults and snide remarks.
>>
>> While it might be possible in general, it seems to be a skill you do not
>> possess yourself, making you something of a hypocrite.
>
> I wasn't offering advice was I?
>
> I was making an observation.
>
> There is a difference.

True.

I think you were making the observation that you are
an idiot.

Arne

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#22996

On 3/20/2013 5:28 AM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Fredrik Jonson"  wrote in message
> > The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
>> could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
>> think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
>> you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
>> it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.
>>
>> Could it be possible that people would be more inclined to take your advice
>> to heart if you took another approach?
>>
>> This is usenet, and obviously you are free to post in whatever tone you
>> like. However, there is something to be said for being kind to others,
>> especially newbies and people you do not know.

> Let me offer you some advice Fredrik.
>
> I have observed Lew's comments and behaviour in this group for several
> years.  While he may come across as "hostile" or "rude" on first
> impression, I believe he is not trying to be either of those things.
> There is no doubt that Lew has excellent skills and knowledge in Java
> and you can do far worse than to follow his advice or learn from him.
> He reviewed your code and provided some feedback because he wanted to
> help you, not to get his jollies belittling you or showing how clever he
> is.  He didn't have to do that (it takes time and effort) and he gains
> nothing from it other than the satisfaction of helping people.

First, it was not Fredrik's code. So I will give you the advice
of understanding who wrote what in a thread before you start
giving them advice.

Second, I can not see that Fredrik is claiming that Lew wants to
be rude. He is only suggesting that Lew could get the message better
through by wording things differently. Which is a reasonable suggestion.

> The other thing to remember is that the world is a tough place and to
> succeed as a developer you need to be able to compete on the world stage
> and amongst talented peers.  Had Lew delivered a "softer" response you
> may have been less likely to react in a positive, motivated way.
> Prospective employers would most likely be much harder on you than Lew
> has been.

What is acceptable behavior in a job interview situation depends
on the local culture.

But in many places non-desperate job seekers would walk
out at rude behavior from interviewers side.

And it makes sense, because a company with an unprofessional
attitude towards interview most likely behave unprofessionally
in many other contexts.

Arne

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#23078

"Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> writes:

> "Fredrik Jonson"  wrote in message
> news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...
>
> [Apologies for the lack of indentation, reply at end of post]
>
> Lew wrote:
>
>>  Turtle Wizard wrote:
>> > Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 :
>> > http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/
>>
>> [Snip Lew's code review]
>
> Lew, I want to start with a thank you for conducting a code review on
> Turtle's project. Technically it is mostly resonable advice.
>
> The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
> could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
> think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
> you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
> it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.
>
> Could it be possible that people would be more inclined to take your advice
> to heart if you took another approach?
>
> This is usenet, and obviously you are free to post in whatever tone you
> like. However, there is something to be said for being kind to others,
> especially newbies and people you do not know.
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Let me offer you some advice Fredrik.
>
> I have observed Lew's comments and behaviour in this group for several
> years.  While he may come across as "hostile" or "rude" on first
> impression, I believe he is not trying to be either of those things.
> There is no doubt that Lew has excellent skills and knowledge in Java
> and you can do far worse than to follow his advice or learn from him.
> He reviewed your code and provided some feedback because he wanted to
> help you, not to get his jollies belittling you or showing how clever
> he is.  He didn't have to do that (it takes time and effort) and he
> gains nothing from it other than the satisfaction of helping people.
>
> The other thing to remember is that the world is a tough place and to
> succeed as a developer you need to be able to compete on the world
> stage and amongst talented peers.  Had Lew delivered a "softer"
> response you may have been less likely to react in a positive,
> motivated way.  Prospective employers would most likely be much harder
> on you than Lew has been. Programmers competing with you for a
> position or trying to get ahead of you in the workplace will also not
> be so generous and are unlikely to be as courteous.
>
> I strongly suggest you accept the (constructive) criticism and strive
> to be a better developer.
>
> I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand
> the heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that
> analogy in the terms of software development.

Back when the Second Iraqi War was just getting started, I used to know
a guy who insisted that the U.S. was not, repeat not invading Iraq.  He
had all kinds of complex legalistic arguments to back this up and there
was no chance of convincing him otherwise.  And yet he completely missed
the real point: to the people on the ground, watching the tanks roll in,
it looked like an invasion, and that was what ultimately made the
difference in the outcome.  Learning not to give offense unnecessarily
is an important professional skill, as much as knowing an API or being
able to write clear grammatical English.  Most of us are not naturally
good at these things, which is why we continually work at honing our
abilities.

Another useful skill is learing to spot and avoid rationalizations.
When I point out that many people perceive Lew as rude, I am doing no
more than making an objective statement of fact :-)

-- 
Jim Janney

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#23080

"Jim Janney"  wrote in message news:ydn38vnrnmv.fsf@shell.xmission.com...

[No indentation again, reply at the end]

"Qu0ll" <Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com> writes:

> "Fredrik Jonson"  wrote in message
> news:slrnkkiom1.nnr.fredrik@biggles.jonson.org...
>
> [Apologies for the lack of indentation, reply at end of post]
>
> Lew wrote:
>
>>  Turtle Wizard wrote:
>> > Final Fantasy 2 based game written in Java : source code GPLv2 :
>> > http://code.google.com/p/angels-destiny-rpg/
>>
>> [Snip Lew's code review]
>
> Lew, I want to start with a thank you for conducting a code review on
> Turtle's project. Technically it is mostly resonable advice.
>
> The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
> could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
> think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
> you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
> it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.
>
> Could it be possible that people would be more inclined to take your 
> advice
> to heart if you took another approach?
>
> This is usenet, and obviously you are free to post in whatever tone you
> like. However, there is something to be said for being kind to others,
> especially newbies and people you do not know.
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> Let me offer you some advice Fredrik.
>
> I have observed Lew's comments and behaviour in this group for several
> years.  While he may come across as "hostile" or "rude" on first
> impression, I believe he is not trying to be either of those things.
> There is no doubt that Lew has excellent skills and knowledge in Java
> and you can do far worse than to follow his advice or learn from him.
> He reviewed your code and provided some feedback because he wanted to
> help you, not to get his jollies belittling you or showing how clever
> he is.  He didn't have to do that (it takes time and effort) and he
> gains nothing from it other than the satisfaction of helping people.
>
> The other thing to remember is that the world is a tough place and to
> succeed as a developer you need to be able to compete on the world
> stage and amongst talented peers.  Had Lew delivered a "softer"
> response you may have been less likely to react in a positive,
> motivated way.  Prospective employers would most likely be much harder
> on you than Lew has been. Programmers competing with you for a
> position or trying to get ahead of you in the workplace will also not
> be so generous and are unlikely to be as courteous.
>
> I strongly suggest you accept the (constructive) criticism and strive
> to be a better developer.
>
> I also wanted to add something along the lines of "If you can't stand
> the heat then get out of the kitchen" but I struggled to frame that
> analogy in the terms of software development.

Back when the Second Iraqi War was just getting started, I used to know
a guy who insisted that the U.S. was not, repeat not invading Iraq.  He
had all kinds of complex legalistic arguments to back this up and there
was no chance of convincing him otherwise.  And yet he completely missed
the real point: to the people on the ground, watching the tanks roll in,
it looked like an invasion, and that was what ultimately made the
difference in the outcome.  Learning not to give offense unnecessarily
is an important professional skill, as much as knowing an API or being
able to write clear grammatical English.  Most of us are not naturally
good at these things, which is why we continually work at honing our
abilities.

Another useful skill is learing to spot and avoid rationalizations.
When I point out that many people perceive Lew as rude, I am doing no
more than making an objective statement of fact :-)

------------------------

Agreed.  Personally I don't especially like the way Lew treats people, 
especially newbies, and do believe that it's better to be positive and 
encouraging without resorting to colourful (offensive?) language.

I guess what I am trying to say is simply that I don't believe Lew is 
inherently nasty and that I often learn from him regardless of his attitude. 
I have encountered far worse in the "real world".

--
And loving it,

-Qu0ll (Rare, not extinct)
_________________________________________________
Qu0llSixFour@gmail.com
[Replace the "SixFour" with numbers to email me] 

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#23084

On 3/22/2013 8:08 PM, Qu0ll wrote:
> "Jim Janney"  wrote in message news:ydn38vnrnmv.fsf@shell.xmission.com...
>> Back when the Second Iraqi War was just getting started, I used to know
>> a guy who insisted that the U.S. was not, repeat not invading Iraq.  He
>> had all kinds of complex legalistic arguments to back this up and there
>> was no chance of convincing him otherwise.  And yet he completely missed
>> the real point: to the people on the ground, watching the tanks roll in,
>> it looked like an invasion, and that was what ultimately made the
>> difference in the outcome.  Learning not to give offense unnecessarily
>> is an important professional skill, as much as knowing an API or being
>> able to write clear grammatical English.  Most of us are not naturally
>> good at these things, which is why we continually work at honing our
>> abilities.

> Agreed.  Personally I don't especially like the way Lew treats people,
> especially newbies, and do believe that it's better to be positive and
> encouraging without resorting to colourful (offensive?) language.

> I guess what I am trying to say is simply that I don't believe Lew is
> inherently nasty and that I often learn from him regardless of his
> attitude. I have encountered far worse in the "real world".

What is offensive varies by culture and persons.

Lew do not go after the person.

But he can go after the code in a let us continue to use that
term colorful way.

That is seen as offensive by many people.

I truly believe that Lew do not consider it offensive and
did not intend to be offensive.

But Lew should realize that some people non the less will
consider it offensive.

And IMHO let that realization impact his actions (posts).

Arne

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#22975

On 20 Mar 2013 07:18:25 GMT, Fredrik Jonson wrote:

> The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
> could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
> think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
> you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
> it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.

Condescension is the currency of programming support. Beginners get free
advice and help, and experienced folks get to feel superiour. Both sides
win. Personally, I offer condescension- and agression-free advice and
reviews at a low rate of 39,99/h (EUR, not USD).

Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you
will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
altogether.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#22976

On Wednesday, 20 March 2013 11:41:51 UTC, Joerg Meier  wrote:
> Condescension is the currency of programming support. Beginners get free
> advice and help, and experienced folks get to feel superiour. Both sides
> win. Personally, I offer condescension- and agression-free advice and
> reviews at a low rate of 39,99/h (EUR, not USD).
> 
> Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you
> will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
> altogether.

I'm hoping this is a joke and I'm looking forward to Lew quoting your message with lots of [sic]s.

If someone offered me free advice on the condition that they can be condescending and aggressive I would consider the price they are charging too high.

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#22983

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 05:59:19 -0700 (PDT), paul.cager@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wednesday, 20 March 2013 11:41:51 UTC, Joerg Meier  wrote:
>> Condescension is the currency of programming support. Beginners get free
>> advice and help, and experienced folks get to feel superiour. Both sides
>> win. Personally, I offer condescension- and agression-free advice and
>> reviews at a low rate of 39,99/h (EUR, not USD).

>> Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you
>> will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
>> altogether.
> I'm hoping this is a joke and I'm looking forward to Lew quoting your message with lots of [sic]s.

It's not a joke, but that reply pretty much means that internally, you feel
the same - you enjoy pointing out my flaws.

I, on the other hand, would be happy to know which words I spelled wrong.
English being my 3rd language, I am always eager to know how I can improve.

> If someone offered me free advice on the condition that they can be condescending and aggressive I would consider the price they are charging too high.

That is certainly well within your rights, and a choice some people make.
But the reality is that if you, as a newbie, are asking stupid questions in
programming fora, you are going to a) get help and b) get condescension.

Most newbies seem to feel that that is well worth the trade. When I enter a
new field that I have no experience in, I certainly consider the smug
patronizing I know I will face in programming fora or on IRC worth the
advice I get without having to pay for class or private tutoring.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#22989

2013-03-20 17:49, Joerg Meier skrev:
> I, on the other hand, would be happy to know which words I spelled wrong.
> English being my 3rd language, I am always eager to know how I can improve.

The only words you misspelled were "superior(ity)". Your sig, however,
seems to show that you feel superior to people who would try to email
you. Why?

-- 
Lars Enderin

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#22990

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:33:42 +0100, Lars Enderin wrote:

> 2013-03-20 17:49, Joerg Meier skrev:
>> I, on the other hand, would be happy to know which words I spelled wrong.
>> English being my 3rd language, I am always eager to know how I can improve.
> The only words you misspelled were "superior(ity)". Your sig, however,
> seems to show that you feel superior to people who would try to email
> you. Why?

Ah, I thought that was the proper English spelling (as opposed to the
American spelling) of that word. Thanks for the correction.

My sig, while probably largely useless here since it's German, just says
that I don't read the emails going to the account in my From:-field, since
I only get spam there. I usually check it once every other month or so, but
if someone were to try to contact me there, they would likely wait in vain
for a reply.

I just like to separate the two things, no value judgement included.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#22992

2013-03-20 23:15, Joerg Meier skrev:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:33:42 +0100, Lars Enderin wrote:
> 
>> 2013-03-20 17:49, Joerg Meier skrev:
>>> I, on the other hand, would be happy to know which words I spelled wrong.
>>> English being my 3rd language, I am always eager to know how I can improve.

>> The only words you misspelled were "superior(ity)". Your sig, however,
>> seems to show that you feel superior to people who would try to email
>> you. Why?
> 
> Ah, I thought that was the proper English spelling (as opposed to the
> American spelling) of that word. Thanks for the correction.
> 
> My sig, while probably largely useless here since it's German, just says
> that I don't read the emails going to the account in my From:-field, since
> I only get spam there. I usually check it once every other month or so, but
> if someone were to try to contact me there, they would likely wait in vain
> for a reply.
> 
> I just like to separate the two things, no value judgement included.

Ok. A little awkward way of saying that the email address given is a
throwaway address and shouldn't be used. Another more common way is to
give a fake address, for example with a domain like "invalid".

-- 
Lars Enderin

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#22993

On Thu, 21 Mar 2013 00:11:17 +0100, Lars Enderin wrote:

> 2013-03-20 23:15, Joerg Meier skrev:
>> My sig, while probably largely useless here since it's German, just says
>> that I don't read the emails going to the account in my From:-field, since
>> I only get spam there. I usually check it once every other month or so, but
>> if someone were to try to contact me there, they would likely wait in vain
>> for a reply.

>> I just like to separate the two things, no value judgement included.
> Ok. A little awkward way of saying that the email address given is a
> throwaway address and shouldn't be used. Another more common way is to
> give a fake address, for example with a domain like "invalid".

Well, it's not a fake address, and on the rare occasion, I will ask someone
or agree to someone mailing me there, and then I'll check it. It's just
that I don't usually do.

Liebe Gruesse,
		Joerg

-- 
Ich lese meine Emails nicht, replies to Email bleiben also leider
ungelesen.

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#23002

On 3/20/2013 7:41 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
> On 20 Mar 2013 07:18:25 GMT, Fredrik Jonson wrote:
>> The problem is - and I'm not sure you are aware - the tone in your review
>> could be perceived as rather hostile, you even shout at one place.  Do you
>> think people are more prone to listen to your advice when you shout? Also
>> you needlessly use negative adjectives, like "clumsy" and "strange", where
>> it would suffice to describe the technical problem with the code.
>
> Condescension is the currency of programming support. Beginners get free
> advice and help, and experienced folks get to feel superiour. Both sides
> win. Personally,

> Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you
> will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
> altogether.

That is not a pretty picture that you paint of seasoned/experienced
programmers.

I don't believe that in general they are so horrible.

Most would help because they like to help and they learn themselves
by helping others - not to feel superior.

Arne

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#23036

On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
wrote:

>On 3/20/2013 7:41 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:

[snip]

>> Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you

     Ha!  The programmers that I have seen with an air of superiority
are the ones who do not know so much.

>> will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
>> altogether.

     Given my above statement, that would be a benefit.

>That is not a pretty picture that you paint of seasoned/experienced
>programmers.
>
>I don't believe that in general they are so horrible.

     People tend to notice jerks.  The quiet, polite guy is generally
not noticed as much.

>Most would help because they like to help and they learn themselves
>by helping others - not to feel superior.

     Yes, and it is paying it forward for the times I have gotten
help.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

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#23048

On 3/21/2013 1:01 PM, Gene Wirchenko wrote:
> On Wed, 20 Mar 2013 20:39:00 -0400, Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk>
> wrote:
>
>> On 3/20/2013 7:41 AM, Joerg Meier wrote:
>
> [snip]
>
>>> Don't begrudge seasoned programmers their air of superiourity. At best you
>
>       Ha!  The programmers that I have seen with an air of superiority
> are the ones who do not know so much.
>
>>> will make them stop responding to newbies, and at worst they will leave
>>> altogether.
>
>       Given my above statement, that would be a benefit.
>
>> That is not a pretty picture that you paint of seasoned/experienced
>> programmers.
>>
>> I don't believe that in general they are so horrible.
>
>       People tend to notice jerks.  The quiet, polite guy is generally
> not noticed as much.

The combination of "air of superiourity" and "not know so much" is
typical not ignored in usenet groups - it will cause some sarcastic
comments when the opportunity arise.

Arne

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