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Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #3819
| From | Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> |
|---|---|
| Newsgroups | comp.lang.java.programmer |
| Subject | Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern |
| References | (6 earlier) <iq17dt$c54$1@dont-email.me> <c3lbs6pc00he19u3ru6asfpdicu552pvu0@4ax.com> <iq4rj8$j2j$1@dont-email.me> <JLnxp.68858$yp3.49687@newsfe09.iad> <iq68h6$7og$1@dont-email.me> |
| Message-ID | <whAxp.19939$Ot6.2301@newsfe15.iad> (permalink) |
| Organization | Public Usenet Newsgroup Access |
| Date | 2011-05-08 14:20 -0300 |
On 11-05-08 11:15 AM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote: > On 08/05/2011 05:05, Arved Sandstrom allegedly wrote: >> On 11-05-07 10:28 PM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote: >>> On 08/05/2011 01:26, Zapanaz allegedly wrote: >>>> On Fri, 06 May 2011 18:25:31 +0200, Daniele Futtorovic >>>> <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> wrote: >>>> >>>>> On 06/05/2011 08:25, Zapanaz allegedly wrote: >>>>>> On Thu, 05 May 2011 22:48:21 +0200, Daniele Futtorovic >>>>>> <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> But the code that *calls* >>>>>>> getSortedMap() doesn't have to care about whether or not it's a >>>>>>> LinkedHashMap >>>>>> >>>>>> yes, it does. >>>>>> >>>>>> The code that calls getSortedMap() has to know whether the results >>>>>> will be sorted or not. >>>>> >>>>> Not unless the calling code inserts in that Map *and iterates* over >>>>> it, >>>>> it doesn't. >>>>> >>>>> A LinkedHashMap is not sorted. At least not in the absolute sense. >>>>> It is >>>>> sorted relatively to another sorting, viz. it (possibly) replicates >>>>> the >>>>> iteration order of another Map. But as I have tried to explain before, >>>>> knowing that it's a LinkedHashMap *without knowing in what order the >>>>> insertion took place* doesn't tell you *anything* about the iteration >>>>> order. >>>> >>>> I am using the word "sorted" in an incorrect way, it's true. >>>> >>>> This is from a real-world application, the results in the map are >>>> presented in a UI, and they do in fact have to be in a particular >>>> order in that UI. They are ordered by an algorithm based on a set of >>>> user-entered choices, and inserted in that order. So if that order >>>> isn't preserved in the map, the way the items appear in the UI would >>>> not be what the user had selected. >>> >>> This whole discussion is about the declared type, not the runtime type. >> >> Sort of helps if the declared type has some reasonable relationship to >> the possible runtime types, actually. If the contract of the declared >> type deviates too much from the contract of the possible runtime types, >> which is the case here, what's the point? >> >>> Anyway, I've had enough of this. >>> >> Probably just as well. You can't convince everyone to do something >> ill-advised. > > Them's fighting words. No, merely argumentative words. Like I said, Daniele, I respect your opinion - you produce good posts and I read them carefully - but I am not impressed by dismissive statements like "Anyway, I've had enough of this". That translates to "whatever, I can't make these idiots see the light, I'm washing my hands of them" in vernacular English. If you happened to say that in a professional environment, say a developers' meeting, you'd have a lot of pissed-off people. It's actually a lot better to say something like "I believe I'm correct, but I'm clearly not making my case; I'll leave the discussion at this point". Lot more diplomatic. > Show me a code example with a method, that is not a factory method; that > returns a LinkedHashMap instance; for which it matters to the caller > that the return type be declared as LinkedHashMap, rather than Map. > I don't know why you're excluding factory methods. In fact a factory method would be amongst the most likely to declare the return as Map and not as LinkedHashMap, so I wouldn't be likely to use one as an example anyway. I don't think I need to invent a new example: the OP has already provided one. Let's say he's got client class A (maybe a JSF backing bean) that absolutely requires that the DataModel be loaded by a map obeying this contract. I'll go further and say that if your requirements are so tenuous and erratic that this specific requirement is going to change a fair bit, that you've got bigger problems than how you declare your collections types. From the sounds of what the OP said this is a definite, solid, stable and essential requirement. Provider class B with the method in question is tasked to supply the map that obeys this "predictable iteration order" contract...namely a LinkedHashMap. You can absolutely declare that return value from the B.getMap() method as a Map. You'll need to comprehensively Javadoc that method as a result, even if it's not a public/published API method, because now Map tells you very little. You'll also do well to comment the location of the call so as to increase the likelihood that future maintenance in class A doesn't ignore the special required nature of _that_ Map. Or you could in this situation just return LinkedHashMap. By doing so you now locked that relationship in...which given the fact that Java possesses no interface-level capability of enforcing this behavioural contract, gives you language-level assurance of using the right map. I'd very possibly think differently about this if I had an inkling that this method was to be made publicly available in a library to any third party client. But that's not the impression I'm getting from the OP's description. AHS
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"Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 12:21 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-05 15:43 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:19 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 21:47 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:14 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 13:26 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:27 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:42 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:48 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:02 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 00:02 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:49 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 07:24 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-06 07:03 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:30 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:56 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:50 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 23:37 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 19:43 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 17:17 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:25 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:25 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:26 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 03:28 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 00:05 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 16:15 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 14:20 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 19:48 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-10 07:36 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:04 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-10 21:31 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 20:01 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:14 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-11 10:41 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:55 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 16:42 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 23:34 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-12 00:51 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 00:58 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-12 20:08 +0100
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-15 13:25 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:24 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:00 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2011-05-06 15:01 +0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:17 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:28 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:21 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:58 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:18 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:20 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:23 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:17 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 18:26 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:57 +0100
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-05 23:29 +0100
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-06 13:30 +0100
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:19 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:47 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 22:47 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:28 -0700
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 17:15 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 20:53 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 21:39 -0400
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-07 00:56 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 12:24 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 13:42 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 11:04 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-09 19:33 -0300
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 15:51 +0200
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:15 -0600
Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 19:40 -0300
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