Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #3714

Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern
References	(6 earlier) <ipv6q5$vq4$1@dont-email.me> <SPFwp.15920$rB2.9262@newsfe21.iad> <ipvfbo$o57$1@dont-email.me> <P%Pwp.14014$ei6.7822@newsfe19.iad> <iq1973$i3r$1@dont-email.me>
Message-ID	<MaZwp.20509$uh5.13403@newsfe02.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2011-05-06 17:50 -0300

Show all headers | View raw

On 11-05-06 01:56 PM, Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
> On 06/05/2011 12:24, Arved Sandstrom allegedly wrote:
[ SNIP ]

>> It's not about providing a Map with the same iteration order as
>> "another". There might be no "other". In the case of a stock
>> LinkedHashMap we know that the predictable iteration order is insertion
>> order. But mainly the contract we're after is predictable iteration
>> order, regardless of how the map was loaded. That is what the Javadoc
>> says.
> 
> True, there might be no other: the Map may have been constructed and
> filled in the method itself.
> 
> But I maintain that the iteration order of a LinkedHashMap is *not
> predictable*, *unless* you know the order in which elements were
> inserted in it (or can make reasonable assumptions as to that).
>  
>> As far as your nuance is concerned, I'm interested (the _OP_ is
>> interested) in providing a map with predictable insertion order. Map
>> does not satisfy that; LinkedHashMap does. If I return Map then I am
>> making a mistake.
>>
>>> The return type being a LinkedHashMap, itself, doesn't tell you
>>> _anything_ about its iteration order.
>>
>> ??? It tells me that it has a predictable iteration order (which happens
>> to be insertion order). It's the _predictable_ bit that is important.
>> That it happens to be insertion order is a bonus but not the key point.
> 
> I repeat: the iteration order is *not predictable* if you don't happen
> to know the insertion order (unlike e.g. a SortedMap).
[ SNIP ]

I'm not ignoring the rest of the post here, by any means, Daniele. I do
respect you as a knowledgeable debater actually. Although if you make a
forceful case expect a forceful counter-case if I think you're wrong. :-)

I believe that we are somewhat at cross-purposes here. I think you're
reading more into the use of the word "predictable" than is deserved.
All I read into this is that, assuming that I have a default
LinkedHashMap that tracks insertion order (there is a constructor that
lets you specify access order with a boolean flag), that (1) *if* I know
the insertion order then I know ahead of time what an iterator on that
map will do, and (2) as corollary, if I've otherwise captured that
knowledge with one iteration, and then subsequently track insertions, I
can also predict what future iterations will do.

Do I know what the iteration order will be if I don't know the order of
insertions, and haven't iterated at least once? No, obviously not. It
might have been more accurate for the API Javadocs to describe
LinkedHashMap as having conditionally predictable iteration order.

AHS

Back to comp.lang.java.programmer | Previous | Next — Previous in thread | Next in thread | Find similar

Thread

"Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 12:21 -0700
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-05 15:43 -0400
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:19 -0400
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 21:47 +0200
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:14 -0600
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 13:26 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:27 +0200
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:42 -0600
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:48 +0200
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:02 -0600
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 00:02 +0200
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:49 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 07:24 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-06 07:03 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:30 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:56 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:50 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 23:37 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 19:43 -0300
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 17:17 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:25 -0700
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:25 +0200
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:26 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 03:28 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 00:05 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 16:15 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 14:20 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 19:48 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-10 07:36 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:04 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-10 21:31 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 20:01 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:14 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-11 10:41 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:55 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 16:42 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 23:34 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-12 00:51 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 00:58 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-12 20:08 +0100
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-15 13:25 -0300
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:24 -0400
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:00 -0600
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2011-05-06 15:01 +0300
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:17 -0400
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:28 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:21 -0400
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:58 -0600
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:18 -0400
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:20 -0300
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:23 -0400
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:17 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 18:26 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:57 +0100
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-05 23:29 +0100
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-06 13:30 +0100
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:19 -0400
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0600
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:47 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 22:47 -0600
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:28 -0700
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 17:15 +0200
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 20:53 -0300
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 21:39 -0400
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-07 00:56 -0300
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 12:24 +0200
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 13:42 -0300
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 11:04 +0200
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-09 19:33 -0300
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 15:51 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:15 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 19:40 -0300

csiph-web