Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #4001

Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern

From	Lew <noone@lewscanon.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern
Date	2011-05-12 00:58 -0400
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<iqfpd0$hr0$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(15 earlier) <cP6dnVE0G8HAV1fQnZ2dnUVZ_rCdnZ2d@earthlink.com> <iqeii4$3i9$1@dont-email.me> <iqesb6$e1g$1@news.albasani.net> <iqevca$fmg$1@dont-email.me> <nospam-86EBEB.00513012052011@news.aioe.org>

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On 05/12/2011 12:51 AM, John B. Matthews wrote:
> In article<iqevca$fmg$1@dont-email.me>,
>   Daniele Futtorovic<da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid>  wrote:
>
>> On 11/05/2011 22:42, Lew allegedly wrote:
>>> Daniele Futtorovic wrote:
>>>> Patricia Shanahan allegedly wrote:
>>>>> I think some of the trouble might lie in the ambiguity, in a Java
>>>>> context, of the sentence "Program to an interface.".
>>>>>
>>>>> Meaning 1: Users of some module (in the widest sense) should
>>>>> depend only on what is declared and specified about the module,
>>>>> not on direct knowledge of how it is currently implemented.
>>>>>
>>>>> Meaning 2: Java programs should depend only in Java interface
>>>>> types to represent what is declared and specified about a module
>>>>> for the use of its callers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am very strongly in favor of meaning 1 of "Program to an
>>>>> interface.". Everything any user of a module needs to know about
>>>>> it should be declared and/or specified as part of its interface
>>>>> (in the general sense), and using code should depend only on what
>>>>> is declared and specified.
>>>
>>>> Absolutely. Isn't the wording "program to a contract rather to an
>>>> implementation" also in use? I find that a much better one,
>>>> because it doesn't evoke Java interfaces.
>>>
>>> I like the notion "program to the type". This subsumes Java
>>> interfaces and classes, allows intelligent use of generics (which
>>> augment Java interfaces just beautifully) to make type assertions,
>>> and incorporates the notion of programming to a contract. It also
>>> allows the type to be 'LinkedHashMap' where that is the type whose
>>> contract you actually need.
>>
>> Not sure about "type". To me this "to the interface/contract" is a
>> step on the path towards hypothetical minimalism and good
>> definitions. Good definitions are a Good Thing not only for types,
>> but also for components, layers and applications as a whole. But
>> they're different /sorts/ of definitions for each level.
>>
>>> I have run into serious pushback from people who have a religion
>>> about contract-based programming and a very different idea from me
>>> about who should enforce what parts of a given contract. I don't
>>> remember which Received-From-On-High placebo, er, miracle language
>>> they were touting - it's famous but I don't care so I forget - that
>>> allowed them to be just as dogmatic about "contract" as some in
>>> Java are about "interface", but their flavor of fundamentalism was
>>> no improvement. One One True Way's proselyte is just as crappy and
>>> obnoxious as every other One True Way's.
>>
>> _Ada_, mayhap?
>
> Ada [1]? It's not impossible, but the zealotry reminds me more of
> Eiffel [2], which includes particular support for design by contract
> [3]. Lew's notion of "program to the type" reminds me of the concept of
> abstract data type [4], which is well supported by Ada's notion of
> specification (package interface) and consistent with Patricia's
> Meaning 1.
>
> [1]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_(programming_language)>
> [2]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_(programming_language)#Design_by_Contract>
> [3]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eiffel_(programming_language)#Design_by_Contract>
> [4]<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abstract_data_type>

Yeah, it was Eiffel.  Oy.

-- 
Lew
Honi soit qui mal y pense.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Friz.jpg

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"Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 12:21 -0700
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2011-05-05 15:43 -0400
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:19 -0400
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 21:47 +0200
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:14 -0600
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 13:26 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:27 +0200
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 14:42 -0600
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:48 +0200
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:02 -0600
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 00:02 +0200
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:49 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 07:24 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-06 07:03 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:30 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:56 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 17:50 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 23:37 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 19:43 -0300
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 17:17 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 02:28 +0200
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:25 -0700
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-06 18:25 +0200
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:26 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 03:28 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 00:05 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 16:15 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 14:20 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-08 19:48 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern markspace <-@.> - 2011-05-10 07:36 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:04 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-10 21:31 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 20:01 -0300
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:14 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2011-05-11 10:41 -0700
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 19:55 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-11 16:42 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Daniele Futtorovic <da.futt.news@laposte-dot-net.invalid> - 2011-05-11 23:34 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern "John B. Matthews" <nospam@nospam.invalid> - 2011-05-12 00:51 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-12 00:58 -0400
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-12 20:08 +0100
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-15 13:25 -0300
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:24 -0400
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:00 -0600
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jukka Lahtinen <jtfjdehf@hotmail.com.invalid> - 2011-05-06 15:01 +0300
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:17 -0400
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-07 16:28 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 17:21 -0400
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 15:58 -0600
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:18 -0400
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 19:20 -0300
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-05 18:23 -0400
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:17 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 18:26 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-05 22:57 +0100
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Tom Anderson <twic@urchin.earth.li> - 2011-05-05 23:29 +0100
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2011-05-06 13:30 +0100
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 12:19 -0400
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0600
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-05 20:47 -0300
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2011-05-05 16:41 -0700
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-05 22:47 -0600
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Zapanaz <http://joecosby.com/code/mail.pl@foo.com> - 2011-05-05 23:28 -0700
  Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-06 17:15 +0200
    Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-06 20:53 -0300
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2011-05-06 21:39 -0400
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-07 00:56 -0300
      Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-08 12:24 +0200
        Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-08 13:42 -0300
          Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-09 11:04 +0200
            Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-09 19:33 -0300
              Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Michal Kleczek <kleku75@gmail.com> - 2011-05-10 15:51 +0200
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Jim Janney <jjanney@shell.xmission.com> - 2011-05-10 13:15 -0600
                Re: "Program to an interface" - When to break a design pattern Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2011-05-10 19:40 -0300

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