Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #20836

Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ?

From	Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ?
References	(5 earlier) <50dd5b51$0$80184$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net> <raadnU-8Z6xqRkDNnZ2dnUVZ8madnZ2d@bt.com> <50de2260$0$293$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <JfBDs.90567$2v.68591@newsfe05.iad> <50df9c4b$0$284$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>
Message-ID	<nUoEs.1$Z03.0@newsfe23.iad> (permalink)
Organization	Public Usenet Newsgroup Access
Date	2012-12-31 19:06 -0400

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On 12/29/2012 09:43 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 12/29/2012 7:22 AM, Arved Sandstrom wrote:
[ SNIP ]

>> I emphatically don't delineate layers by technology used, or even by
>> location. A clean, understandable architectural picture can deal with,
>> and explain, business logic in Javascript on a mobile browser, and also
>> business logic in a DB stored procedure.
>
> Business logic can be put in all tiers.
>
> But it may not be equally good design.
>
> Arne

There are several schools of terminology here, Arne. I hold to the 
school that says that a "tier" is a physical division in a system 
(hardware/software) architecture, while a "layer" is a logical division 
in a software architecture.

So that's why I said what I said the way I said it, using the words 
"layers", "technology" and "location" on purpose. I think that as long 
as your business logic is identifiably in a location where it should be, 
then you have a sound solution (all other things being equal).

In any case we commonly have business logic in the data tier. A subset 
of business logic is business rules, and one category of business rules 
is data constraints. And data constraints, as you know, are very often 
imposed directly in an RDBMS or managed indirectly through JPA or its 
.NET equivalents, to use just a few examples.

Since we - software developers in general - routinely do the above, I 
see no reason to demonize business logic in stored procedures either. In 
fact, given the efficiency of a modern RDBMS in handling DML it is 
frequently the most sensible place to put certain kinds of business logic.

To be honest I've been uncomfortable for a long time with the label and 
concept of a "business logic" layer, as opposed to say DALs or 
Presentation layers. For example, workflow is a component of business 
logic - in order to adhere to orthodoxy you have to then maintain that 
every aspect of workflow in web apps, SOA orchestrations or mobile 
client apps is still business logic.

Which probably it is - in which case why is Javascript business logic a 
bad thing? I've worked in a bunch of shops where to utter Javascript and 
"business logic" in the same sentence occasions gasps of horror. :-) And 
yet many of these same people have methods, that are directly exposed 
through JSF web pages, also doing business logic. I'm not indicating 
strongly here what I advocate and what I don't, I'm just saying that 
business logic permeates every tier we have, so maybe the concept of a 
"business logic" layer needs some thought.

I think at a minimum a developer needs to understand what business logic 
is - rules and workflow - and needs to adequately manage where it is. I 
think it's less important what tier it's in.

AHS

Thread

Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "SL@maxis" <noreply@my-rialto.com> - 2012-12-25 01:04 +0800
  Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-24 12:37 -0500
    Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "SL@maxis" <ecp_gen@my-rialto.com> - 2012-12-25 04:32 +0800
      Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-12-26 23:20 -0800
        Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:05 -0500
        Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-27 21:07 -0500
          Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-27 21:13 -0800
            Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 11:07 -0500
              Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-28 09:14 -0800
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 18:18 -0500
          Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Kevin McMurtrie <mcmurtrie@pixelmemory.us> - 2012-12-28 00:41 -0800
            Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 11:14 -0500
            Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 17:50 +0000
              Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-28 21:22 +0100
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-28 21:08 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-28 22:55 +0100
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 18:02 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 08:55 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:40 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 20:08 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 19:33 -0500
              Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-28 17:51 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 11:37 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 11:39 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Gene Wirchenko <genew@telus.net> - 2012-12-29 22:22 -0800
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:34 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-29 08:22 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-29 13:00 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:54 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2012-12-30 11:02 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-30 20:33 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 19:54 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-29 20:43 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2012-12-31 19:06 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 19:29 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-01 01:46 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-12-31 21:35 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-01 09:22 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 19:46 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2013-01-05 08:22 +0800
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 19:59 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-04 20:01 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2013-01-05 01:32 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 10:27 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 10:29 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 16:29 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 13:46 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 18:44 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:10 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 09:04 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2013-01-06 09:53 -0800
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 18:21 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:07 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 21:18 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:28 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 21:58 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 22:04 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Twirlip of the Mists <twirlip@killfile.me.now.invalid> - 2013-01-06 22:10 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 08:34 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 08:25 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 10:34 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 16:46 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:05 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-06 17:10 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-06 14:04 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2013-01-06 21:03 -0500
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom2@eastlink.ca> - 2013-01-07 07:01 -0400
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 11:11 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? lipska the kat <lipskathekat@yahoo.co.uk> - 2013-01-07 14:25 +0000
                Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? "Richard Maher" <maher_rj@hotspamnotmail.com> - 2013-01-05 08:05 +0800
  Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-24 11:06 -0800
    Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-24 23:33 +0100
      Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Eric Sosman <esosman@comcast-dot-net.invalid> - 2012-12-24 18:15 -0500
        Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-12-25 10:43 +0100
      Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-12-25 13:21 -0800
  Re: Java servlet on browsers: dying or kicking ? Roedy Green <see_website@mindprod.com.invalid> - 2013-01-01 12:29 -0800

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