Groups > comp.lang.java.programmer > #11961

Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication

From	BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com>
Newsgroups	comp.lang.java.programmer
Subject	Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication
Date	2012-02-11 22:20 -0700
Organization	albasani.net
Message-ID	<jh7i91$tl2$1@news.albasani.net> (permalink)
References	(9 earlier) <4f345cb4$0$291$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <jh3k0f$mbj$1@news.albasani.net> <4f36c569$0$294$14726298@news.sunsite.dk> <14291890.498.1328991256328.JavaMail.geo-discussion-forums@pbr7> <4f36cd93$0$289$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>

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On 2/11/2012 1:20 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
> On 2/11/2012 3:14 PM, Lew wrote:
>> On Saturday, February 11, 2012 11:45:42 AM UTC-8, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>> On 2/10/2012 12:25 PM, BGB wrote:
>>>> On 2/9/2012 4:54 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>> On 2/8/2012 11:10 PM, BGB wrote:
>>>>>> On 2/8/2012 7:14 PM, Arne Vajhøj wrote:
>>>>>>> On 2/8/2012 8:49 PM, BGB wrote:
>>>>>>>> say, if one is using XML for compiler ASTs or similar (say, the
>>>>>>>> XML is
>>>>>>>> used to represent a just-parsed glob of source-code), do they
>>>>>>>> really
>>>>>>>> need any sort of schema?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I would expect syntax trees to follow certain rules and not be free
>>>>>>> form.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> well, there are some rules, but the question is more if a schema
>>>>>> or the
>>>>>> use of validation would offer much advantage to make using it
>>>>>> worth the
>>>>>> bother?...
>>>>>
>>>>> Enforcing correctness of data is usually a good idea.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> potentially, but checking against schemas isn't free.
>>
>> Oh, yeah, micro-optimize that last $0.0000001 of performance.
>>
>> Great thinking.
>>
>> Checking against schemas isn't so expensive, either. You spout this
>> drivel,
>> BGB, about "isn't free", but where are your numbers? Show us reality,
>> dude -
>> exactly how "not free" is schema validation, under what loads, on what
>> platforms? Hm?
>>
>> I thought not.
>>
>>>> depending on the application, it could be hard to justify spending the
>>>> extra clock cycles (except maybe for debugging purposes or similar).
>>>
>>
>> How many "extra clock cycles", and does it cost less than the damage your
>> development techniques cause?
>>
>>> One of the points is that you can validate during integration test
>>> and if you encounter a problem but keep validation turned off otherwise.
>>>
>>> And besides I would assume the big XML parser libraries to have
>>> optimized the validation quite a bit.
>>
>> Given that BGB is just spewing dream talk with zero or less than zero
>> facts,
>> evidence or measurement behind it, it's pretty safe to dismiss his
>> "conclusions".
>>
>> or such ...
>
> In science you dismiss hypothesis's based on proving them wrong
> not by noting the lack of proof.
>

yeah...

and anyways, I am not about "making conclusions" or "decreeing how 
things should be done" or anything, rather, my view is there may be a 
time and place for everything (and whatever is or is not the case can be 
decided on a case-by-case basis or similar, based on whatever may apply 
in the particular case in question, and whichever options may be cheaper 
or more expensive, and similar).

IMHO, the idea that a person "should" always do things the same way in 
every situation is itself arguably questionable. likewise goes for a 
beliefs that something is universally required or universally 
prohibited, ...

[ decided to leave out most of the rest of what I wrote. ]

basically, it all amounted to the frustration that there is little point 
in trying to "prove" something which ultimately results to little more 
than "hair splitting over a few percentage points...".

the thing is... textual XML is kind of bulky, but doing damn near 
anything to it (like running it through deflate) will significantly 
reduce its size (say, to around 10-25% its original size). one can 
outperform this with specialized formats, but at this point it is 
worrying about a few percentage points +/-.

what is the point of "proving" something which is ultimately of a fairly 
limited significance and scope?...

maybe one can try to "prove" that people "should" actually give a crap.

or, for that matter, finding a particular claim to disprove (say, that X 
is always true or always false). this is rarely the case with data 
compression, as it is typically more about averages, and likewise, there 
are cases for which the data may actually get bigger (about the only 
real "absolute" in data compression is something commonly known as the 
"Shannon limit").

secondarily is the "law of diminishing returns" (itself a natural result 
of the Shannon limit), where essentially the compressibility of a piece 
of data will form a sort of curve, and any (lossless) algorithms will 
fall somewhere along this curve, and typically with a fairly consistent 
ordering (say, for example, LZMA tends to compress better than BZip2 
which tends to compress better than Deflate/GZip).

one can look at how each algorithm works internally, or experiment with 
how they can use the basic parts to build other things or achieve 
interesting results (and note mostly that the parts themselves tend to 
fall along these sorts of curves, reducing "compression" mostly to a 
matter of "going mix and match" with various parts and making 
cost/benefit tradeoffs between particular combinations of parts).

note that going further along the curve tends to become increasingly 
costly, hence why tradeoffs need to be made.

but, ultimately, how much something is relevant will itself tend to 
depend somewhat on context.

Thread

Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication jebblue <n@n.nnn> - 2012-02-07 12:11 -0600
  Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-07 16:38 -0700
    Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-07 20:26 -0400
      Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 01:41 -0700
        Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-08 07:19 -0400
          Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 12:07 -0700
            Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-08 21:16 -0500
              Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 19:50 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-09 06:24 -0400
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 09:15 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-09 18:58 -0400
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 16:15 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-09 18:50 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 21:40 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 14:47 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 12:06 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 15:18 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-11 23:03 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:27 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 13:33 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 15:50 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 14:34 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-09 18:48 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 21:46 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 08:51 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-10 10:43 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 13:15 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-10 14:50 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-10 14:32 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-10 17:10 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-10 22:08 -0400
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-11 00:49 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arved Sandstrom <asandstrom3minus1@eastlink.ca> - 2012-02-11 14:04 -0400
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 14:55 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 14:52 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-11 20:06 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 22:41 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 00:46 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:29 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:31 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-12 16:02 +0000
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 11:16 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-12 22:46 +0000
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 11:33 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 20:18 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 01:36 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Joshua Cranmer <Pidgeot18@verizon.invalid> - 2012-02-12 13:52 -0600
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 14:43 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 14:49 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-09 18:46 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-09 18:45 -0500
        Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 14:02 -0800
          Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 18:49 -0700
            Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-08 21:14 -0500
              Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-08 20:07 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 23:29 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-09 09:40 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-09 17:02 -0700
              Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 21:10 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-09 18:54 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-10 10:25 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 14:45 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-02-11 12:14 -0800
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-11 15:20 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-11 22:20 -0700
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-12 09:23 -0500
                Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-12 12:13 -0700
    Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Arne Vajhøj <arne@vajhoej.dk> - 2012-02-07 20:24 -0500
    Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication Martin Gregorie <martin@address-in-sig.invalid> - 2012-02-08 01:31 +0000
      Re: Interplatform (interprocess, interlanguage) communication BGB <cr88192@hotmail.com> - 2012-02-08 00:55 -0700

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