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Re: Single Class Object Model - new release

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On 13 juin, 00:15, markspace <-@.> wrote:
> On 6/12/2012 1:03 PM, micha wrote:
>
> > Yes it's inconsistent:
> > - because [] and ArrayList/Collections are 2 different ways to handle
> > vectors/lists (while there is only 1 in Python/Lisp/Perl
>
> Really?  In Perl, there's only one way to do something?  I admit I'm not
> an expert, but in my brief sojourn some 10 years ago I got the exact
> opposite impression.
>
> > - because int is a primitive type (like in procedural languages)
> > while Integer are Objects (the bypass to put integers in a Collection
> > in fact)
>
> So you invented a third way to represent these objects, which in your
> view is "more consistent?"
>
> I think you're playing fast and loose with the English language here.
> What you're saying is at least non-obvious, and at worst just isn't
> true.  You might want to back up these statements with some reasoned
> arguments if you want anyone to believe them.
>
> >    instead all entities in Scala/Smalltalk are Objects (even
> > functions), and scripting language (Python/Perl/PHP/Lisp) provide lazy
> > typing and are thus
>
> The problem I see with your invention is it's likely to be even worse
> than Java's solution.  It's likely to be very difficult to optimize for
> the JVM.  Languages like Python and Lisp which provide "unified
> primitives" also provide ways of optimizing them.   In my view the way
> to get Java programmers to understand these techniques is to discuss
> them directly, .not bolt a framework on to the language
>
> And honestly I think these concepts are well understood already.  It's
> pretty well known around here that C# provides excellent optimization of
> its built-in integers (which are objects like Java's Integer) and that
> those techniques could be ported to Java, if Oracle ever gets the
> resources to do it.  But in the meantime the suffering by Java
> developers is not too great, so we muddle on.

Hello markspace

- regarding Perl, I'm not an expert (not even a seasoned programmer)
but it seems the's only one entity to handle vectors (I'm not speaking
of hashtables here)
> So you invented a third way to represent these objects, which in your
> view is "more consistent?"
Nope it's not a third way to represent integers, it's away to
voluntarily lower the semantic level at buildtime in favor of a higher
semantic level at runtime. You may think of an application from 2
point of views: it's API and the semantic network of it's instances at
runtime. I feel that putting the focus on the semantic network of
instances (which seems not the common focus as developers are more
focused on the API and the code) would allow to work in a new and more
effective way. Of course this would require wysiwyg tools like
debuggers to visualize these runtime semantic networks. I guess that
this would allow 'on the fly refactoring' and that such an 'object
graph editor' would enhance the way we think and design software
components

> I think you're playing fast and loose with the English language here.
Yes my arguments are not so strong and are lacking samples for
illustration and 'proof of concept'. It's an early project (started a
month ago only), and I'm pretty excited by the potential that it
unfolds each day i work on it.. So I'm surely not objective about it.
What I know is that it grasps a bunch of issues that I've seen and
encountered for years ago and I'm almost sure these issues are still a
daily reality

> not bolt a framework on to the language
In fact, this project is a reaction against 'deep ultimate class
hierarchies' that I've seen promoted proudly by SW developers/
architects. If we get back from the start a model is at first a
scientific tool which tries to grasp essential properties/behavior of
a real system as a thinking tool to build a better understanding of
it. We know that a model is only a temporary view of our understanding
nd that it will be replaced by an improved model sooner or later.
That's why I dislike these  'deep ultimate class hierarchies' as they
force us to invest time to learn how to use them and once we invested
this time we are then very reticent to get rid of them even if we are
convinced that there is a better alternative

> The problem I see with your invention is it's likely to be even worse
> than Java's solution.  It's likely to be very difficult to optimize for
> the JVM.
I doubt it would be difficult to optimise for the JVM because
precisely the buildtime API is so lightweight !
In fact SCOM is a kind of 'regression': it's a kind a 'machine code
for semantic network of objects'.
I wrote it on top of Java because it's so popular and easy to use BUT
in fact I now think that it could be written on top of the JVM and
that it may become useful not in it's current state (which requires
writing Java code and compiling) but with 'wysiwyg' tools like an
'object graph editor', an approach similar at first glance with UML
modeler but wired in realtime to the runtime environment, so it would
be both an editor, a debugger and an object modeller

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Thread

Single Class Object Model - new release micha <kernmichel@yahoo.fr> - 2012-06-11 15:45 -0700
  Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-11 16:38 -0700
    Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-11 18:39 -0700
      Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-11 20:55 -0500
        Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-11 21:42 -0700
          Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-12 18:24 +0200
            Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-12 13:09 -0700
              Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-12 23:48 +0200
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-13 01:12 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-13 06:44 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-13 15:22 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-14 00:56 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-14 03:24 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-14 12:27 -0500
          Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Lew <lewbloch@gmail.com> - 2012-06-12 10:05 -0700
            Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-12 13:03 -0700
              Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Leif Roar Moldskred <leifm@dimnakorr.com> - 2012-06-12 15:58 -0500
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-13 02:08 -0700
              Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Robert Klemme <shortcutter@googlemail.com> - 2012-06-12 23:33 +0200
              Re: Single Class Object Model - new release markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-12 15:15 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-13 02:57 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-13 08:26 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release micha <ludicite@gmail.com> - 2012-06-13 15:17 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-06-13 19:06 -0700
                Re: Single Class Object Model - new release markspace <-@.> - 2012-06-13 19:15 -0700

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