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Re: Volatile happens before question

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NNTP-Posting-Date Wed, 18 Jan 2012 18:34:52 -0600
Date Wed, 18 Jan 2012 16:34:50 -0800
From Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org>
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Subject Re: Volatile happens before question
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On 1/18/2012 4:12 PM, markspace wrote:
> On 1/18/2012 3:00 PM, Knute Johnson wrote:
>> On 1/18/2012 1:16 PM, markspace wrote:
>>> That's what I was thinking. With folks like Brian Goetz and Bartosz
>>> saying the system can simply invent values, it's hard to analyze the
>>> resulting code for any kind of deterministic behavior. Esp. because Java
>>> is a step away from the machine, and I don't know exactly what sort of
>>> operations are going to be executed.
>>
>> I know that the JLS says that variables can have values out of thin air
>> but Goetz says on page 36 "When a thread reads a variable without
>> synchronization, it may see a stale value, but at least it sees a value
>> that was actually placed there by some thread rather then some random
>> value. This safety guarantee is called out-of-thin-air safety."
>
>
> That's a good find. I can't reconcile that statement with other things
> I'm seeing. Since real world hardware seems to be able to produce values
> out of thin air, I don't see how Java could prevent this. It seems that
> one or the other statement is incorrect.
>
>

I'm curious about the "values out of thin air" statement about hardware.
Could you give some information about how it happens?

Patricia

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Thread

Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 04:04 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 08:17 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 08:50 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 09:00 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 08:54 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 11:24 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 14:49 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 15:49 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:14 -0800
        Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 18:17 -0800
          Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 16:45 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 08:18 -0800
    Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 08:33 -0800
      Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 08:49 -0800
        Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 09:21 -0800
          Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 10:10 -0800
            Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 10:28 -0800
              Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 10:41 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 11:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 12:09 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 12:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-17 12:38 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 13:35 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 14:41 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-17 14:55 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 15:27 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:37 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 17:42 -0800
            Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 15:46 -0800
              Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-17 16:14 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 20:01 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 20:37 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-17 21:52 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-17 23:47 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 00:08 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 09:04 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Steven Simpson <ss@domain.invalid> - 2012-01-18 11:22 +0000
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 06:24 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 07:32 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 08:34 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 10:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 11:15 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 11:59 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 12:24 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 13:16 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 15:00 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 16:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-18 16:34 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 17:17 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Patricia Shanahan <pats@acm.org> - 2012-01-18 19:03 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-18 15:30 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-18 16:10 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 08:18 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 09:40 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 10:10 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 10:39 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 12:13 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 13:31 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 16:14 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 21:16 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-20 03:23 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question "raphfrk@gmail.com" <raphfrk@gmail.com> - 2012-01-20 06:46 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-20 08:56 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-01-20 11:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 17:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-19 12:46 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question markspace <-@.> - 2012-01-19 13:38 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Peter Duniho <NpOeStPeAdM@NnOwSlPiAnMk.com> - 2012-01-18 07:32 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Lew <noone@lewscanon.com> - 2012-01-18 00:06 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Knute Johnson <nospam@knutejohnson.com> - 2012-01-18 09:23 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 17:07 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 17:12 -0800
                Re: Volatile happens before question Joshua Maurice <joshuamaurice@gmail.com> - 2012-01-19 19:22 -0800
  Re: Volatile happens before question Daniel Pitts <newsgroup.nospam@virtualinfinity.net> - 2012-01-17 10:24 -0800

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